Dog breeders advice for starting as a breeder.

[fluffbreeder]

I have a question as I’ve been thinking longer term about being a breeder, I’m 50 now and would something I would look to start in 5-8 years, I already own 3 dogs of the breed I love and I’ve had dogs for over 25+ years. We have acres and the space and funds for me to do this and my DH is onboard.

How does anyone start as the KC pups are all breed restricted? I’d love to hear from breeders, did you plan to become one?

this would be my only role as I’m aiming to retire so I’d like to do my research now.

How did you get your first puppy you could breed from and how frequently do you have litters?

Also I do hear there are enough dogs, and it’s an irresponsible thing to do, is that generally the thought of breeders as well? Is this something to just keep a pipe dream?

My plan would be to get the next pup, female and not restricted in the next 2 years, but would a KC breeder sell to me?

many thanks in advance for any advice, good and bad!

Fair enough. I still think it's weird - if someone is an excellent, reputable breeder then surely they'd like their affix mentioned as being just that? Isn't them existing opening them up to abuse from weirdo breeder haters?

The OP probably won't say the affix because they either don't have one (so not reputable) or because they know they're not reputable. We already know they're not reputable because the OP has no idea about endorsements and thinks that them being KC reg is the be all and end all.

How do you think your dog entered the world then? Do you think she was beamed down from Planet Zog just for you to live with?

Spoiler alert: canines mate and the female gives birth. When the puppies are old enough, they either join a pack ( but that’s generally in very wild places) so they can hunt and scavenge together, or they set off to find a territory of their own. Some fairly upsetting behaviours ( by human standards) can be involved.

Domesticated dogs may not roam around hunting and slaying, but they still have to mate, give birth and see the new generation find their own territory / doting owner.

@LandSharksAnonymous do you have a degree in assumptions?

jeeze. You know a lot about someone you’ve never met, you know the more the post continues the more I realise why people breed dogs without joining “the dog world” because it’s full to the brim of nasty pieces of work like you.

Have a read of how you’ve spoken to a perfect stranger would you say all of that to my face?

Yes my dogs are my pack, that’s just a fun terminology we use as our family. When heading out on walks I say grab the pack… my DS also used to say they were going to the vets when going to the Drs, we speak and have different sense of humour to you.

A role for me means something rewarding, apologies it’s not a word you’d use to describe your own role in life.

My current dogs are all from a reputable breeder who had sold me 3 in total so I’m sure she doesn’t think I’m this giant idiot you believe me to be. But they are fairly irrelevant to my post other than their breed.

Nah, you won't be proven wrong.

I remember someone in one of the breeds I used to be interested in having a very unpredictable litter of 13 large breed puppies! The dam got into distress and had to have an emergency c-section and they almost lost her. Then she couldn't feed the pups, so they had to be hand reared. They had to pay people to come in and help because feeding 13 puppies every hour was absolutely impossible between two of them. That litter ended up costing them well over 10k. They're very reputable breeders, so all pups were endorsed with a return to breeder clause. They ended up taking five back (two owners died, one had cancer, one had to flee DV, one pup was ill) and taking dogs back when they're older is hard work!

I don't think people realise how hard proper breeding is. I could never, ever put myself through it. Especially as there's always a risk of losing your precious dog.

Beautiful cats.

When you say you were “involved” with ragdolls for 7 years what exactly does that mean and how much time did you spend?

Didn’t you have a full time job as well so are you saying we went to shows and just looked at cats and spoke to breeders? What other involvement could you have without owning your own cat?

Again, you're affirming why you shouldn't be anywhere near the business end of a dog. People in the "dog world" are not nasty. They care about their breeds, deeply, and are absolutely sick of random people who don't. They care about the future of their breed, the welfare of the dogs and that's admirable, not nasty.

The only reason people breed dogs without being involved in the dog world is for money. There is literally no other purpose.

Your breeder is not reputable.

The thing is, OP, I might have been frank and blunt but I never referred to you as a ‘nasty piece of work.’

Instead of insulting someone who has offered facts. The fact is, you didn’t even know what an ‘endorsement’ was - and only owning males is not an excuse for that. In 30 years of owning a dog - assuming you’ve had them since your 20s and you say your 50s now - that is something you should have picked up. It’s terminology I would expect first time owners to know tbh. So, I’m sorry if my being blunt upset you - but you have no clue about the dog world, breeding or showing, and before even start thinking about breeding you need to go back to the basics. Day one. Week one.

@SquashedSquid
What dogs do you breed and what’s your affix?

If you read my comments you'd know that I don't, and would never breed dogs.

And that’s the thing, I am day one week one asking for advice? I’m not pretending to know everything.

Im being told the horror stories and nothing so far is of a massive concern to me, I'm willing and able to take on hard work and have my eyes wide open to what’s involved, I’m more than happy to put in the hours and support some friends with litters.

Not sure if it’s the terminology used or just a general dislike of anyone asking questions? But the assumptions about my own dogs is a bit weird.

Restrictions on breeding and endorsements are the same thing said in a different way, I can’t even begin to comprehend how much that would get someone’s knickers in a twist.

I'd agree that some breeds are an absolute shit-show of health issues and conformational disasters, and that the tendency of the show world to breed to extremes has caused most or all of that. A 'relatively short nose' becomes 'no nose at all' and 'stocky' is interpreted to mean 'built like a brick but also obese'.

Showing also causes a tendency towards inbreeding and the use of popular sires, because 'everyone' who shows wants a dog that looks like the one that won Crufts. Suddenly half the litters in a numerically small breed are fathered by the same stud, and half of those puppies end up carrying his obscure mutation for some hellacious recessive disease, and before you know where you are, the breed is riddled with the issue and another genetic test is needed...

BUT it is helpful to have someone run an experienced eye over your dog to check out its conformation, whether its coat is suitable for the job it was bred for, and so on. In my own breed, I wouldn't consider a puppy that didn't come from proven working parents, and I'd want a good look at the pedigree to get a handle on the ancestry, whether any had won working tests or field trials, etc.

And the value of going for a specific breed is that you have a reasonable idea of what you're getting, in terms not only of looks, size and coat, but also traits. My two have very different levels of confidence (one is a complete drip, the other bold and brassy) and one has the breed trait of not being the easiest to train (in spades), whereas the other is very biddable. However, they both have a whole range of breed traits I'd expect: they hunt the wind, they work wide, they have high prey drive, they have loads of energy, they love people (including children) but are not in-your-face over-social, they are dog-social, they are great in the house, they aren't particularly barky, etc. They're fairly crazy but not as crazy as the average working cocker. They don't have the fuck-you attitude of the average Jack Russell.

I know what I want in a dog and having breeds helps me to find a puppy that is a good fit for us and to whom we can give a fulfilling life.

It's so strange that it's such a hard, horrible experience yet you keep doing it. You aren't out there providing some vital service you know. You're a dog breeder. If you stopped tomorrow it wouldn't matter, so why such a huge chip on your shoulder about it all?

Its a wonder that anyone breeds dogs when it's so very very difficult according to you. Is it the thousands of £s you charge per puppy that keeps forcing you to put your female dogs at such a high risk? After all if none of you actually enjoy it (i doubt the dogs are having much fun) what's the point if not the money?

Thanks for the lovely and very normal reply, I appear to have raised the most bonkers of breeders on my thread. Be lovely to talk to some more regular people.

All reputable pedigree breeders with years of experience started where you are - interested and planning to become a breeder.

This is obviously the worst place to ask as you will get the replies you’ve got. I actually think the world needs more full time professional breeders with a mindset like yours, not less.

The best place to start will be books and forums about your breed and integrating yourself into that world. There will be ageing established breeders who will be happy to mentor you if you approach them in the right way.

I wish you well, what’s your breed out of interest?

All these horror stories about breeding going wrong, dead puppies, dead bitches, hand rearing, high vets bills - this could happen to anyone who breeds, "reputable" or not. So why is it ok for landshark to subject her dogs to this incredibly high risk of death and injury, but nobody else? Every time she breeds a bitch she's exposing her dog to these risks. Is the difference because she's aware of the risk? Great, op is aware of the risk too now. So why shouldn't op do it too?

Honestly the responses you've had are blowing my mind op. Every breeder starts somewhere. Landshark started somewhere, her mum started somewhere and at some point had to learn the information you're trying to find out now. Baffling that it's absolutely ok for her to take such massive risks with her dogs and her finances, but she is having a go at you for wanting to do exactly what she's doing. Someone's going to have to explain the double standards because i simply don't get it.

Honestly, go and talk to some actual breeders. When I bought my younger dog I was considering breeding her and said so to her breeder, who I knew and had trained with. She was clear about the standard she'd expect before she lifted the endorsement, but was nothing but encouraging. She knew me, she knew I was serious about my dogs, she knew I wasn't an idiot.

I've not bred the dog in question for all sorts of reasons. Some dog-related, some me-related, some general life-related.

Read @LandSharksAnonymous AMA about breeding for a detailed account of the costs breakdown.

@Nessastats I breed because I love the breed and being as involved in it as I am, I can stop the issues that have effected other breeds before they take root in my own (like GSDs and their back legs). And I have done.

The long hours don’t bother me, the being tired and constantly waiting doesn’t bother me - but it does for many, and that was my point. It’s not easy when it’s done properly but if you are passionate about your dog breed then it’s 100% worth it.

If I stopped tomorrow, it would matter for the breed. All my dogs health scores and COI are impeccable - 1/2 on the hips of the girl I’m breeding from later this year. Breed average atm is close to 18. It would be fifty years if breed experience gone (in my family). For my latest litter my wait list was two years. Very few people can claim that. That’s what being a good breeder is - it’s years of dedication and effort to breed healthy, happy dogs who support the breeds development.

FWIW - not that you will care. I have a boy atm, JW SGWC, hip scores amongst the best I’ve ever seen. COI is 5% below breed average. All genetic testing is clear. By all rights given my experience and who his sire was….I’d make tens of thousands on studding him. I won’t though. Why? Because I’m going to breed from his sister - when she’s born later this year and once she’s old enough - and good breeders aim to diversify the gene pool, not narrow it. As it is, when I breed from his sister in 2-3 years, once all my costs are accounted for i‘ll make a loss. So please don’t say it’s for the money! If it was, I’d be better off sticking to my day job and not taking SUPL!

As it is, sometimes I do hate it and I’m exhausted. But then I look at the state of GSDs, pugs, and to some extent flat coats and I think ‘no. I can’t let that happen to Goldies.’

That’s what being a good and responsible breeder is - hard work, tireless effort and an understanding that just because you can does not mean you should. It’s about doing your best for your chosen breed. But given you clearly hate breeders, I doubt you’ll give two fucks and continue to lambast anyone who dares breed

Thank you! Sunday morning is looking slightly less bonkers.

Bernese Mountain dogs, who are a tricky breed in themselves with genetic issues.

We have also just applied to foster rescue Berners in the meantime.

I get it, she’s passionate about her dogs and guarded about me as I’ve used the wrong words and rather than take a step back and look at how she’s coming across she’s done in all guns blazing.

As an owner of a tricky genetic breed I appreciate the work that’s gone in to try and ensure my own dogs don’t die young from cancer, and are fabulous examples of the breed.

Maybe it’s the fact I’m from farming backgrounds, the death of pups isn’t something that I would be prepared for as I raise animals that most of us eat.

Maybe it’s because I’ve worked retrievers and labs on hunts and I think her breed is retrievers? Goodness knows.

What I do know is I’ll take on board the going to shows, the “dog world” terminology and get more involved in the next 5-6 years and go in with my eyes wide open.

How do you know the op won't be equally invested in improving her chosen breed?

I've read and understood all of your post but what i still don't understand is why you think the op can't do what you're doing, given 10-20 years or whatever to develop her line. How many mediocre dogs have you and your mum bred to get to that one really good one?

You're not actually providing some great service to the world here. You're not single handedly holding up the breed. You seem to think you're being altruistic in some way. I don't hate breeders, i think they've got their place. At the end of the day, you'll both be breeding dogs for your own selfish reasons. (I am not using selfish as a pejorative here. Simply to state that the reason for doing it is because you want to for yourself) Suggesting i hate breeders is a very lazy argument. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with breeding, i don't care either way if someone wants to breed, rescue or buy a dog.

The thing I'm taking issue is with your attitude that you're doing it for all the "right" reasons and that you're somehow better than every other breeder because your reasons are more pure and altruistic. At the end of the day, you breed because you want to. Op wants to breed because she wants to. Op is asking for help and advice. Isn't it possible to give help and advice without the unnecessary attitude?

If you stopped breeding dogs tomorrow, the breed would go on and the world would keep turning. You've just convinced yourself with this reason that it's ok to take the risks that you're lambasting op for wanting to take.

@EdithStourton what breed is she??

I will talk to real life breeders as well, I did expect the anti breeder squad to be out but the breeders that have replied seem a tad angry as well! Let’s hope the real life ones are friendlier.

Sorry I mean to tag land shark in that question.

No, it isn't obvious as you aren't making your points clearly and seem rather muddled.

You've also misidentified an ad hom, but I think that was deliberate - easier to throw around terms than defend a weak point.

I’m not a breeder, and nor do I have any particular insight into the world of dog breeding, but it’s very clear you’re colossally under-informed.