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Dog breeders advice for starting as a breeder.

227 replies

fluffbreeder · 22/03/2025 19:59

I have a question as I’ve been thinking longer term about being a breeder, I’m 50 now and would something I would look to start in 5-8 years, I already own 3 dogs of the breed I love and I’ve had dogs for over 25+ years. We have acres and the space and funds for me to do this and my DH is onboard.

How does anyone start as the KC pups are all breed restricted? I’d love to hear from breeders, did you plan to become one?

this would be my only role as I’m aiming to retire so I’d like to do my research now.

How did you get your first puppy you could breed from and how frequently do you have litters?

Also I do hear there are enough dogs, and it’s an irresponsible thing to do, is that generally the thought of breeders as well? Is this something to just keep a pipe dream?

My plan would be to get the next pup, female and not restricted in the next 2 years, but would a KC breeder sell to me?

many thanks in advance for any advice, good and bad!

OP posts:
Nessastats · 23/03/2025 09:34

PlasticBags · 23/03/2025 09:34

I’m not a breeder, and nor do I have any particular insight into the world of dog breeding, but it’s very clear you’re colossally under-informed.

That's why she is asking questions.

fluffbreeder · 23/03/2025 09:55

PlasticBags · 23/03/2025 09:34

I’m not a breeder, and nor do I have any particular insight into the world of dog breeding, but it’s very clear you’re colossally under-informed.

@PlasticBagswell done for stating the obvious.

OP posts:
LizaRadleywasonthespectrum · 23/03/2025 10:14

Op I would start by getting yourself a copy of Book of The Bitch. I was a breeder for many years (of a vulnerable breed) and personally I wouldn’t bother for BMD.

fluffbreeder · 23/03/2025 10:22

@LizaRadleywasonthespectrumThanks, why wouldn’t you touch the BMD? Based on the genetic issues?

OP posts:
Stillplodding · 23/03/2025 11:28

@fluffbreeder My opinion is not worth much as we never actually got puppies on the ground but, I suppose I was in a situation that had some similarities so…

Our first (male) dog of the breed. We had no interest in breeding but we dabbled in showing. He did very well in open and a few champ shows. I was supported by his breeder, and introduced to other people involved in the breed. We also visited multiple shows, at champ level, and observed what we liked/didn’t like. Lines that did well in the ring and also kept in the loop as to whether those dogs went on in other spheres/future health issues etc.

He was a lovely dog, wonderful temperament, well put together but had a rare freak health issue which wasn’t genetic in origin, the specialist put it down to ‘bad luck’, which meant that we stopped showing etc by the time he was about 3/4, and just focussed on his needs as a family pet. But in those years we’d dipped our toes in the water, learning more about the breed.

Several years later we got a bitch from a well respected breeder. She had spoken to our first dogs breeder/other people so altho I didn’t know her personally at that point, she could find out about me on the grapevine through mutual friends etc. We spoke at length before we took our girl on. I explained we’d like to show and that IF everything went well in terms of her type/temperament/health results we might at that point want to have a litter with her to keep a bitch to show. BUT OBVIOUSLY THAT WAS COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON HOW SHE TURNED OUT.

Her breeder was lovely and supportive. She agreed that she would obviously be sold with endorsements but that she would be willing to lift them on the condition that she was a good example of the breed, fully health tested and that we worked together with her support and input.

Things went well and the endorsements were lifted. We spent time discussing stud dogs and which dog would compliment her. We chose a dog who had not only done well in the ring, but also had his show gundog certificate and who we’d met at shows and was a lovely, well rounded boy. His owners/breeders were also very established/reputable and generous with advice and support.

We did all the things you’d expect- obviously health testing, we registered for an affix and with the KC accredited breeders scheme (as it was at the time), we had someone from the KC come to our house to inspect us- meet her, check our records, make sure our house offered a suitable environment for raising puppies etc etc. We had her blood tested to ensure our timing was right and then visited the stud dogs two hours away. We had found a vet about an hour away who specialised in reproduction and had them on hand. We had her scanned and confirmed she was in pup. We had bought all the equipment required etc. We had a long waiting list which I’d had to close as there were more people interested than possible puppies. The prospective puppy owners had been passed our details by our girl’s and the stud’s breeders, and wanted a dog with their lines. Some were ‘pet’ homes and I think three were looking for potential show. Everything was going really well.

She then developed a pyometra. Very rare during pregnancy but ‘just really awful luck’ and no obvious cause/anything we did or didn’t do. The vet offered to try and D and C so we could try again. However, we decided to spay her as this was the safest option for her.

It was really scary and traumatic, and obviously incredibly expensive- several thousands. Obviously we didn’t do it to make any money, we had planned to keep one of the puppies to show for ourselves and improve from our girl. However, selling the other puppies would have buffered the loss.

We were lucky in that our breeder decided to use the same stud dog with our girl’s sister, and let us have second pick. She is the most wonderful girl you could imagine, personality wise she is the most perfect family pet, I could not have asked for more … but her back end conformation isn’t as correct as it could be. She did fine as an adolescent at open level showing but there were many dogs who were better put together and the breed is not a numerically small one. As much as we think she’s perfect she wasn’t going to improve the breed so we had her spayed.

And that was the end of our short experience!

I think in your position your best bet is to start getting involved with the breed- the breed club/shows/working (not sure what/if there are opportunities for BMD to showcase their working skills, I’m not familiar with the breed). Talk to established breeders. Sit ringside and listen, volunteer to help out at breed club shows. Make friends and connections. When you’ve worked out the type you like speak to their owners and breeders for advice, with a view to obtaining a nice bitch puppy with show potential. Start taking her out and see what feedback she gets.

Good luck.

LizaRadleywasonthespectrum · 23/03/2025 11:35

I bred to keep the breed I bred from extinction. BMB isn’t at risk as far as I’m aware. If you want to breed for your own reasons and not for money then it really is your business and no one else’s. The country is overrun with dogs, rescues are struggling to cope and there are daft buggers importing dogs from rescues abroad to add to the problem. How many BSDs were registered last year? I’d go from there in making my decision. The Book of the Bitch is a must to build your knowledge.

EdithStourton · 23/03/2025 11:48

@LandSharksAnonymous having read your post at 8:54, I think you and I are far more on the same page than I sometimes think we are. You breed for show, and I prefer the working lines of just about nay breed, but we share concerns about inbreeding, terrible genetics, high rates of cancer and so on.

@fluffbreeder I'll go as far as to say that I have an HPR breed. There are five that are pretty common in the UK and another dozen or so that aren't.

PlasticBags · 23/03/2025 11:55

fluffbreeder · 23/03/2025 09:55

@PlasticBagswell done for stating the obvious.

Well, you are a classic example of someone who doesn’t know how much you don’t know. That much is very clear.

EdithStourton · 23/03/2025 11:56

SquashedSquid · 23/03/2025 08:05

Fair enough. I still think it's weird - if someone is an excellent, reputable breeder then surely they'd like their affix mentioned as being just that? Isn't them existing opening them up to abuse from weirdo breeder haters?

The OP probably won't say the affix because they either don't have one (so not reputable) or because they know they're not reputable. We already know they're not reputable because the OP has no idea about endorsements and thinks that them being KC reg is the be all and end all.

Nope, I'd not want to lay my dogs' breeders open to some of the people who prowl around on this board. They'd pick a hole and then accuse me of supporting practices that they decree to be unethical/wicked/cruel etc. Can't be bothered with it.

And I think you're being a little sweeping about the OP's breeder. Endorsements may have been explained to OP while she was excitedly cuddling a puppy and appeared to be listening but wasn't taking much in, or when she'd never thought about breeding so listened, but brushed the info aside as irrelevant.

Weirdwalk · 23/03/2025 11:59

Fucking dog breeders.

EdithStourton · 23/03/2025 12:12

ArtTheClownIsNotAMime · 23/03/2025 09:33

No, it isn't obvious as you aren't making your points clearly and seem rather muddled.

You've also misidentified an ad hom, but I think that was deliberate - easier to throw around terms than defend a weak point.

I made two points, clearly. You made a vague reply, which turned out to be apply only to one ('And?') but could easily have applied to both.

In accusing me of 'faux outrage', you imply that I am dishonest, which is an ad hom. And that's just the first one...

You haven't responded to my point about how, even with 130k dogs entering rescue each year, there would still be homes for another 700k puppies even if the dog population was to shift back down to pre-Covid levels.

If you disagree with all dog breeding, fine, but at least own up to it.

KhakiShaker · 23/03/2025 12:54

Hi OP, it sounds like you love your dogs and have the funds, time and land to do something good. Before you get into breeding, please consider setting up a rescue (and not just for BMD )? So many dogs are in need and so many are turned away as rescues are full.

redboxer321 · 23/03/2025 13:09

I would urge you to watch the film Lion @fluffbreeder and see if you can be more like Sue Brierley.

She wasn't talking about dogs but the same principles apply.
"That's one of the reasons I fell in love with your dad. Because we both felt as if... the world has enough people in it. Have a child, couldn't guarantee it will make anything better. But to take a child that's suffering like you boys were. Give you a chance in the world. That's something."

fluffbreeder · 23/03/2025 13:56

KhakiShaker · 23/03/2025 12:54

Hi OP, it sounds like you love your dogs and have the funds, time and land to do something good. Before you get into breeding, please consider setting up a rescue (and not just for BMD )? So many dogs are in need and so many are turned away as rescues are full.

I hadn’t even considered a rescue, but after the comments on here we have signed up to foster in the meantime.

Obviously with dogs that are ok with others, and we have the space and I’m at home so we could make some difference to the rescues even if it’s just making them feel safe for a while and building their confidence, so they can find homes.

OP posts:
crouchendtigerr · 23/03/2025 14:11

Please don't do it. I see so many poorly bred dogs, and it's an absolute heartache

ArtTheClownIsNotAMime · 23/03/2025 14:33

EdithStourton · 23/03/2025 12:12

I made two points, clearly. You made a vague reply, which turned out to be apply only to one ('And?') but could easily have applied to both.

In accusing me of 'faux outrage', you imply that I am dishonest, which is an ad hom. And that's just the first one...

You haven't responded to my point about how, even with 130k dogs entering rescue each year, there would still be homes for another 700k puppies even if the dog population was to shift back down to pre-Covid levels.

If you disagree with all dog breeding, fine, but at least own up to it.

When have I ever pretended not to be against breeding?

You, on the other hand, have pretended to care about dog welfare and tried to use faux outrage about hungry dogs to make whatever point you're trying to make, while also admitting you feel entitled to put dogs at risk through pregnancy and labour and by continuing to create new dogs when there ARE hungry and homeless dogs to be adopted.

ArticWillow · 23/03/2025 15:00

All I can say about domestic animal breeding is, it's both a science and an art.
I have bred dogs and even imported 2 from Europe as many UK lines are riddled with health issues.
So my advice is get a good grip of genetics. Look at different lines (pedigrees) have a look at the dogs both on pictures and in person, speak to lots of owners as well as breeders. Get to know other breeders and what they deem a good dog for breeding. Understand where these people are in the pegging order of breeding and breed judging - some kennels are deemed better than others, but that doesn't equal healthy dogs. Get a feel for the breed standards and health issues associated with cretin confirmations and traits. Some are very obvious but others are hidden and sometimes you'll find out the hard way.
Be prepared to buy a bitch and then discard her 6, 12, 18, 24 months down the line if you find any health or temperament issues. Same applies to her litter, any issues, be prepared not to mate her again.

I'd say, breeding dogs is a labour of love and if you ever feel that love has gone and it turns into just another task: STOP.

redboxer321 · 23/03/2025 16:10

I think this says it all about breeders:
"Be prepared to buy a bitch and then discard her 6, 12, 18, 24 months down the line if you find any health or temperament issues."

I'm sorry breeding dogs is a totally selfish act.
It can never be for the dog's benefit and that is just a fact.

Stillplodding · 23/03/2025 17:54

redboxer321 · 23/03/2025 16:10

I think this says it all about breeders:
"Be prepared to buy a bitch and then discard her 6, 12, 18, 24 months down the line if you find any health or temperament issues."

I'm sorry breeding dogs is a totally selfish act.
It can never be for the dog's benefit and that is just a fact.

Personally I read this as ‘discard’ in terms of showing/breeding aspirations… just enjoy her as a pet, not a bad thing at all. Not necessarily as you presumably read it- discard as in get rid of.

I’m sat on the sofa with my ‘discarded’ showing/breeding potential bitch snoring away and hogging all the space. She is perfectly happy having not made the grade or reached the potential she had when we got her at 8w!

As I said up the thread, she wasn’t good enough to improve the breed so that was the end of that road for her, but she is a wonderful family pet (and still better put together than most dogs of her breed I see out and about).

I do know of some breeders in my breed who rehome dogs who don’t make it into their breeding programs. It’s not something I would’ve done (because I was only ever going to be small scale and our dogs were pets first and foremost), but in theory if done with care to known friends and acquaintances, I don’t think it is always a bad thing.

When our eldest dog sadly leaves us I would jump at the chance to take on an ex show dog from several of the breeders I know- well bred/fully health tested, well trained, well socialised and past the destructive puppy and adolescent stage!

fluffbreeder · 23/03/2025 18:12

ArticWillow · 23/03/2025 15:00

All I can say about domestic animal breeding is, it's both a science and an art.
I have bred dogs and even imported 2 from Europe as many UK lines are riddled with health issues.
So my advice is get a good grip of genetics. Look at different lines (pedigrees) have a look at the dogs both on pictures and in person, speak to lots of owners as well as breeders. Get to know other breeders and what they deem a good dog for breeding. Understand where these people are in the pegging order of breeding and breed judging - some kennels are deemed better than others, but that doesn't equal healthy dogs. Get a feel for the breed standards and health issues associated with cretin confirmations and traits. Some are very obvious but others are hidden and sometimes you'll find out the hard way.
Be prepared to buy a bitch and then discard her 6, 12, 18, 24 months down the line if you find any health or temperament issues. Same applies to her litter, any issues, be prepared not to mate her again.

I'd say, breeding dogs is a labour of love and if you ever feel that love has gone and it turns into just another task: STOP.

Great post and yes I did wonder if she was happy as Larry to not make the grade! 🤣

OP posts:
fluffbreeder · 23/03/2025 18:15

I do follow and chat to many overseas breeders and one is particularly from Switzerland, and I look at how the lines from Poland seem to be panning out in the UK.

OP posts:
ArticWillow · 23/03/2025 18:16

redboxer321 · 23/03/2025 16:10

I think this says it all about breeders:
"Be prepared to buy a bitch and then discard her 6, 12, 18, 24 months down the line if you find any health or temperament issues."

I'm sorry breeding dogs is a totally selfish act.
It can never be for the dog's benefit and that is just a fact.

So you rather have a puppy from a bitch with health problems?
I think if you breed animals, sometimes you need to look past the sentiment and ensure you only use the healthy animals.
Sometimes this means re homing a bitch or dog that doesn't make the grade. Even if it means that some people are unable to see past an individual dog and condemn the breeder.
Guide dogs, working gun & farm dogs and other service animal breeders do exactly this to ensure their lines are fit for purpose.

I'd love to see the same rigorous criteria applied to the pet market. Breed away all the allergies, breed specific cancer types and wird confirmation like short snouts, sloping backs and skin folds. All those things will make the dog suffer and keeps the vet in business.

But I appreciate that MN does not have any idea about genetics and is unable to look at the bigger picture.

redboxer321 · 23/03/2025 18:27

@Stillplodding Yes, I realised that too and while it might be a technical term, it's a horrible word to use about a dog. And we know many breeders do discard their dogs without a second thought for their welfare. Or worse.
I understand that in reality it's a bit more complicated than dog breeder = bad but even though I can acknowledge that, I find it hard to get past that idea.

@ArticWillow All those issues you raise are only issues because people breed/have bred. Human beings can't be the cause of the problem and the solution imo.
Also, I am almost exclusively against using animals as working and service animals. One of two exceptions but that is it.

ArticWillow · 23/03/2025 18:33

@Stillplodding naturally I also have one... but she's sleeping with my DC who took her on as an obedience dog. They made it to CRUFTS YKC competition- didn't win anything but still very proud of them.

@fluffbreeder it's good to be in contact with people from different countries. If you have the time & money I'd suggest you go to a few shows whilst holidaying there.

My breed has an international breed standard & registrar- they are slightly different from the UK, so again it's worth looking at everything available. But also beware of the power of the rabbit hole!

EdithStourton · 23/03/2025 18:52

ArtTheClownIsNotAMime · 23/03/2025 14:33

When have I ever pretended not to be against breeding?

You, on the other hand, have pretended to care about dog welfare and tried to use faux outrage about hungry dogs to make whatever point you're trying to make, while also admitting you feel entitled to put dogs at risk through pregnancy and labour and by continuing to create new dogs when there ARE hungry and homeless dogs to be adopted.

This is getting very tiresome.

'Faux outrage' again. It's an eye-catching phrase, which is probably why you keep using it. But I never expressed outrage, just observed that you seem to either not care about hungry feral bitches trying to rear puppies, or to think that people shouldn't have dogs.

Because if people don't 'feel entitled to put dogs through pregnancy and labour', feral dogs would be the only source of future dogs. That's the point I'm making.

Personally, I'd rather that hungry feral dogs, probably carrying a parasite burden, don't have raise puppies. I haven't 'pretended to care' (another ad hom - implying again that I'm dishonest).

And you keep dodging the question: if 130k dogs go into rescue every year, and if another 700k dogs would be needed to slowly bring the dog population back down to pre-Covid levels, where are those dogs going to come from? Not everyone who could provide a good home for a show-line Labrador or a corgi or even a wired working-line dog is equipped to deal with a former feral puppy or adolescent dog with who knows what genetic predispositions plucked from the streets of Romania.

That's the point I'm 'trying to make'. This is the third time I've made it.

I can only conclude that you'd rather no one had a dog. Do correct me if I am wrong.