Help for a newbie - dog

[Ilovecashews]

As a family we love animals but in the past 15 years only had cats. I have now discovered that daughter is allergic to cats (not badly) and she’s always wanted a dog anyway. We have also discovered that she is neurodivergent and have agreed that having an animal she wants and will certainly love would do her good, a lot of good. We have always adopted for the usual reasons. I don’t know what to do in this case though. We could go to the local shelter and pick the saddest/oldest/sickest dog and be totally fine with that. However she’s met a few border collies and loved their character, and I can see her taking an active role in training, teaching tricks, running around most of the day with one/a puppy if we went down that road. The rest of the family would be onboard with that too. I know that puppies are lots of work etc, but I’ve done harder things for my daughters so that’s something I can do.

The problem I have is the morality of it. Paying for a dog, having another dog pregnant for my pleasure, knowing that one dog in a shelter is going to miss on a frankly fabulous life because I wanted to pick a breed.

Can you help me decide by telling me about your experiences on all of the above?
Thank you

Another in the 'agree to disagree' camp. I have a highly independent gundog breed - one of the HPRs. Some of them are very biddable, others not. A friend of mine has competed with his at national level, but ask him about knee if his young dogs and he eye rolls every time. That particular dog will work with his handler if it suits him, but he likes a really tough challenge, not an easy retrieve.

Some dogs are clever, inventive and think for themselves. Even well-trained dogs can find unsuitable entertainments, and this is especially true of the ones bred to retain an element of independence from a human handler.

Mine have also been bred to work independently and trust their own instincts but they're not the least bit food/treat/bribe orientated so training can be interesting 😆

(And before anyone asks, yes we've tried liver, chicken, sausage, cheese etc etc .....😴)

They want an easygoing, biddable pet

Agreed. Then they go and get something completely inappropriate and wonder why they have a bagload of trouble.

You get round this by just treating frequently and generously then slowly reducing it so they have to do more and more to get it. Things like agility are easier as they are self rewarding to an extent (most dogs love whizzing around) but obedience not to much! Again, we built up in Rally from treat in the hand to now a whole round with a few treats at the end of the round. I still train with frequent treats but she knows if we are doing a round there will be reward at the end. Most people fall down on the independent breeds by just not being rewarding enough. They don't do things to please us they do it because it is valuable to them.

I don't recall ever saying that it was easy, or that dogs aren't independent, or that they can't find unsuitable entertainments. What I said was that it is possible to train the dog to make better decisions.

Exactly @HappiestSleeping - I see it all the time, mainly with working spaniels, collies and the HPR breeds. The vast majority of people don't have the time or knowledge to keep breeds like that in a pet home but for some reason, I constantly see them being recommended as great family dogs 😬

Now before someone jumps on me and tells me they have a perfectly rounded working springer - I'm not saying it's impossible, just that, for most people, they simply don't have the time or skill to keep breeds like those as pets - especially not when there are children involved.

I see thread after thread on here from people struggling with their dogs and 9/10 It's because it's a working breed trying to cope in a pet household and it's predictably all gone tits up.

I would also add working terriers to the list of digs in inappropriate homes - around here that's 99% Jack Russells with the odd Patterdale or Border chucked in for good measure.

I totally agree with you and with @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone

I think this family would be better off getting another cat.

In the first instance they want a dog for training, teaching tricks, running around, then they want it for cuddles, company, warmth. They imagine they are going to get all of this in one package and it has to be a rescue not a puppy and it has to bond with the specified child.

Talk about having unrealistic expectations 🙄

It's fine debating the merits of trainability of collies but these are novice owners who think they will find a ready made dog that can instantly do everything they need... It's just bonkers.

I'm sorry if this is harsh but it needs to be said.

People fundamentally don't understand that different breeds have different needs.

I have been asked for help by someone with a lab puppy they are leaving all day whilst they work. Aside from that whole issue I asked whether he was show or working line. They looked at me blankly. I saw a picture and they are most definitely working line.

Over my 15 years or so with helping run a dog training club this comes up on a weekly basis. Some owners step up and make changes. Some don't. Some cope. It's a bit random.

Until you get an Anatolian (or similar giant LGD that sees a speck in the distance which could potentially be a threat to the flock and needs to be investigated. In which case the instinct to guard will take priority over anything the owner has to offer. This is how these dogs need to work. This is why they are not easy to train or to bribe or to handle. Yes, they can (and do) learn recall but it is rarely 100% reliable in this type of dog, particularly in the ones from working bloodlines.

Totally agree @Newpeep - it's just sad that ultimately the dogs happiness and mental health is what suffers when owners don't do their research and don't bother to step up to the plate.

I think this family would be better off getting another cat.

Their child is allergic to cats.

One of the 'companion' dogs might be appropriate. Poodle, Havanese, Tibetan terrier, Bichon. Or a whippet, next best canine thing to a cat.

Sorry, yes, you are correct. I thought the mildly allergic and the fact that they already had a cat would make it feasible.
(I'm mildly allergic to both dogs and cats but I do have both)

Sure, you can - but some dogs have stronger drives than others that impel them to go and do stuff the handler doesn't approve of.

With some dogs, it will be very, very, very hard to control those drives. Get a high-drive dog with poor handler focus (which IME has a genetic basis, it's not just training) and all bets are off.

Your line of 'that only happen if you let them though' is probably what has irritated those of us who pour hours of effort into training and fulfilling working-line dogs but also know that the urge to go off-piste is just bubbling under the surface. I have known even the best trained HPRs go self-employed at times.

Oh I get the theory, and have tried it over many times - but she’s just too immediate reward driven. She will take an instruction under advisement with no treat but she decides if she sits or not with no immediate reward.

She’s on the whole a well behaved dog and is trained in various extra curriculars like Mantrailing as they are fun and rewarding in themselves. But doing what she’s asked because I think it’s a good idea, not so much! I‘m sure she would swear she knows better if she was asked.

\if she is allergic to pet fur, a cockerpoo would be ideal. Spanials are great with children in general, but young ones need a lot of exercise and stimulation. I agree collies, whilst beautiful, intelligent dogs, would not be your best choice. Not only are they primarily working dogs, who need enormous amounts of exercise, they can also be snappy with childen. Totally concurr with the suggestions of getting a rescue if you can.

Lots of cockerpoos are not hypoallergenic and are dumped because of it.

They are often wildly inappropriate dogs for children - there’s a reason so many end up in centres - because they require a lot of stimulation, grooming and exercise.

Lovely dogs. Not the right choice for OP.

@hamsandyams - I know the type... got one myself!
He's taken the treat / reward thing to a whole new level!
He usually checks out the treat bag before training session - I could swear he decides there and then weather it's worth his time and effort!
He's even once walked off in a huff because the treats were not coming in acceptable intervals in relation to his efforts.

No amount of calling treats in my hand would make him charge his mind.

He just sat by the gate back, to me and hoping someone will open it....

I think some people on here claim to have dog experience, but they don't have experience of different breeds and personalities or a lot of different dogs at all. They've probably had 2-3 pet dogs over 25- 30 years....

Sorry, this was meant to quote @HappiestSleeping

No such thing as a hypoallergenic dog.

My terrier is flying up the levels in obedience. In a controlled environment she is fabulous. But I know I can never compete with her genetic disposition to hunt. So we are selective where we let her off the lead (nowhere near roads of livestock unless it's a 'boring' city park which we walk in occasionally). Most of her walks are offlead as we know where to take her.

Interestingly when we let her hunt she checks in. So she will go for a few seconds, come back, then go again. She is aware of where we are. We reinforced this from young and it's made a tremendous difference. You are never going to get a formal recall but you can heavily reinforce it being worth coming back frequently. This makes her hunting manageable.

The breed is wrong. I understand the attraction but unless the dog has a job it's not a good idea. Get a golden retriever, be very calm around it and train it carefully.

not trained many collies then. Collies will learn what they want to learn really quickly and easily. Try to teach them what they dont want to learn and it is a very different story

No I haven't trained any collies. I have never had a collie.

I'm a one-breed person. I'm not a dog trainer. I only know about Livestock Guarding Breeds and I am not claiming otherwise. I never have.

I was responding to a person who was making a lot of sweeping generalisations about training dogs.

I'm sorry if I insulted your breed, I can ask to have my post removed if you like. I used collies as an example because they seem to do a lot of obedience and a lot of dog trainers have them.

I'm going to go against the grain here and say if you get a rescue get a puppy. Not a teen. Under 6 months. A puppy will not have the hang ups annolder rescue might and for a first dog and with children I don't think you want to risk that. We used to walk a lovely lab for a family while they were out, soft as anything. One day a man walked out of a shop with a rolled up newspaper and he growled and barked and leaped at him. Past bad experience.

I'd also say, I think people are being a bit ott about collies. Providing they are well exercised and part of the family they can be totally happy. And indeed, along with Airedales are my favourite of those Ive owned. They are very tuned in to humans and love to be along for everything you do. But again, puppy OP, so you can socialise it and expose it to EVERYTHING like traffic, children, other animals etc. to avoid hang ups. If a collie, pay attention to training around wheels.of any kind. They are also very noise sensitive.

Would you and daughter consider an Airedale? They are clever, brilliant with children, calm and gentle. I don't agree with anything poodle as they can be quite nervy and highly strung.

You could apply to kennel club breed registries for rejected puppies that people have changed their mind about or have gone unsold?