Help for a newbie - dog

[Ilovecashews]

As a family we love animals but in the past 15 years only had cats. I have now discovered that daughter is allergic to cats (not badly) and she’s always wanted a dog anyway. We have also discovered that she is neurodivergent and have agreed that having an animal she wants and will certainly love would do her good, a lot of good. We have always adopted for the usual reasons. I don’t know what to do in this case though. We could go to the local shelter and pick the saddest/oldest/sickest dog and be totally fine with that. However she’s met a few border collies and loved their character, and I can see her taking an active role in training, teaching tricks, running around most of the day with one/a puppy if we went down that road. The rest of the family would be onboard with that too. I know that puppies are lots of work etc, but I’ve done harder things for my daughters so that’s something I can do.

The problem I have is the morality of it. Paying for a dog, having another dog pregnant for my pleasure, knowing that one dog in a shelter is going to miss on a frankly fabulous life because I wanted to pick a breed.

Can you help me decide by telling me about your experiences on all of the above?
Thank you

Omg chillax, flowers are not the only thing you are destroying 🤣 doom and gloom all around. Do you want to predict that they will become thieves and rapists and that I’ll burn down my home?

I feel I have to counter some in of the negativity on here for border collies. We adopted a border collie at 7 months old from a rescue with 4 kids age 5 to 11. He is now 12 years old has never nipped anyone and has been a joy. However, he has had a walk every morning for 1 HR and half hour in afternoon and quick one in the evening. In between that as a puppy he would play relentlessly with the kids matching their energy for ball throwing etc. someone was at home with him everyday bar one so always had company and within that time he would also need training and games for mental stimulation. The rescue we got him from were excellent at understanding the dogs nature and I would not get a collie puppy from a breeder for children as they are not assessed to see if they are suited to family life. Ours was a failed farm dog 😁. Use a good rescue but think carefully about what you can offer an intelligent lively breed and you could get a diamond like ours! ❤️

I would advise against getting a border collie for a first dog.
They are fantastic dogs in the right home, but they need a job.
As for the rescue v puppy from a breeder, that's up to you. My first 2 were rescues and I got very lucky with both. However my most recent from a very good breeder, fully health tested and contract in place for life, much much easier to have an 8 week old blank canvas , rather than starting from a year old and undoing the previous owner's mistakes.
You need to choose a breed and contact kc registered breed club secretaries in your area.
They will know of reputable breeders with planned litters. Be prepared to wait. I waited a year but absolutely worth it

Sunsetchaser01, I have had 2 rescues, 2 collies,one Blue cross VERY aggressive, RSPCA lab/setter cross VERY aggressive and a private rescue no money changed hands,guy in his 20s diagnosed with my gut told me he was genuine,and and she was lovely. This was 40 plus years ago now.

Three rescues, not 2.

As a collie owner for way too many years! I do love to hear the description of collies from generally non collie owners
All my collies I have had 8 have needed a lot of attention. Not necessarily loads of physical activities but a lot of brain work. They are always ready to be doing things and will herd and encourage you to do things consistently.

However they also have a fab off switch if their needs are meet. They are not all roaming the moors for hours on end every day of the week.

They are very very sensitive so do need a calm consistent household and one that can give them a lot and I mean a lot of time. So thinking of a winter day when the DC are at school and then it is dark when they come home would be challenging for a collie.

I also have labs and wcs. Tbh the lab at the moment is the hardest work! Full on nutty, mad crazy enthusiastic labrador. I am sure he will be fine when he is 7 but right now give me 20 collies for one 2 year old lab!

However collies are not for the faint hearted and if you get a collie now you could easily have 16 years of full on collie. It really is a lifestyle choice and not a dog that will fit easily into an existing non dog household. Your household will have to change to have a happy contented collie. It will be a massive change.

Day to day with my collies they are walked minium of 2.5 hours off lead. These are not gently quiet relaxing walks looking at the scenery. These are collie walks, ball hiding, running around trees, through my legs, paws up, heel work sections, tricks training, searching, scenting etc. They will then come home and chill but are up and ready to work with us again in the afternoon. Some do agility (but for some this is too arousing) some do scent work and mantrailing in the evenings.

No idea of your family dynanmics but collies can find loud houses and emotional outbursts very very hard to live with, they are generally very sensitive dogs - partly why they are never used to be assitance dogs they would need their own therapy dog to help them!

Re OP original question getting a resuce dog you have some idea of what you are getting. You can see before you buy and maybe even foster before committing.

Getting a puppy is never the clean slate that some people suggest a lot of very important development has taken place in the first 8 weeks and this may not become apparent until a later date.

There would be more compliant dogs for your DD than a collie Ones that would be up for training and activities but also happy for a cuddle on the sofa. Some of the crosses from rescue would be good, poodles would be fab.

Thank you so much Keenotter, this is really helpful and interesting!!

On the subject of Border Collie I know a fair few though the Agility circuit.... a high % of the rescue ones come from pet homes because of bordom behaviour issues. Maybe explore the K9 sports on offer in your area if your heart is set on one.

However as you are starting out as dog owners, I would suggest you make a list of characteristics your dog should have.
Make a list of time & money you can easily afford for training, walking, food and insurance / healthcare.

Then have a look at different breeds that would suit. Go to one of the dog events like crufts discover dogs section. There you can meet the dogs and breeders to gather a bit more information.

I'm in 2 minds about rescues... you might find what you want easily or not at all.

@Ilovecashews We found it incredibly hard to get a rescue, even before covid. You have to choose one online, then go and see it. If you don't like it, you have to go home and do it all over again. A rescue dog has to speak to you if you know what I mean?

We persevered and eventually found a lab who was being given up by someone who knew someone who knew someone etc. He was 2 and had no training. 2 years further on and he is almost an adjusted member of society.

I would still go for a rescue, but be very wary of the foreign ones. It will seem tempting as they are available more freely, but many come with significant issues to deal with beyond just training.

We found all of our local rescues refused us because we had a child under 12. So we bought a lab. Do not recommend, no one tells you how much training they need or the fact that they are mental until around 4.

Personally I think for a first dog you're better getting a puppy where you know the parents and get a sense of the likely temperament.

I think unless you live on a farm with hundreds of sheep don't get a collie.

People do tell you - it's just that, as with most things, the majority don't want to listen, especially when faced with photos of adorable puppies, or when they see lovely calm, chilled adult labradors out and about.

We were the same with ours - people absolutely did warn us, we just didn't listen because we saw a cute puppy and didn't really think about the amount of work it was going to involve. Even though we were told, lots!

Do you have local rehoming centre? Pop down and see if there are any suitable dogs…

But first I’d think about how much regular, daily walking you want to do. How far and type, (pavement/field/both).
How much money you have for insurance, food, bills. My Lab is £300 /£400 a month due to health issues.
How much grooming you want to do and how much you want to spend on it.
Whether you have existing pets?
How tolerant a dog needs to be.
You ok with barking, carpet digging, chewing, mouthing…
How long the dog will be left etc

All very valid points, I’m making a list so please keep the posts coming, I’m learning a lot!
We have 70” and 40” gardens (front and back) and are next to one of the biggest parks in London. I walk 10/20k steps every day so at least the walks are assured and I know that my daughter will be in the garden with the dog a lot.
what people do when, say, the children have swimming or play dates at someone else’s home? Do you take the dogs with you or leave them alone at home?

You leave the dog alone at home. You build up to this from puppyhood. One of our two dogs is a very anxious personality - genetically so - but we can leave her completely alone for an hour or two without her getting frantic, having developed her ability to be alone since she was young.

We could build up longer periods of time but we don't need to, as she is usually left with the other dog - who is a very confident critter and can be left alone for hours (but very rarely is).

what people do when, say, the children have swimming or play dates at someone else’s home? Do you take the dogs with you or leave them alone at home?

You leave them at home - but - you often can't do this with a young puppy, so you'll need to have a back up plan in place for at least the first 6-12 months. That could be a dog walker, a family member coming to sit with them, or planning all your activities so that there's always a parent at home to care for the puppy.

As @EdithStourton says you do need to start young when it comes to getting them used to being alone, but that often means starting with literally a minute or two and building up. There are some puppies who are absolutely fine with being left but there's no guarantee so it's kind of a "hope for the best, expect the worst" type scenario.

Hi OP,

Just jumping in to say that if you want intelligence in a puppy, it doesn't have to be a collie. Labs and spaniels are both very clever, but, like collies, can be bonkers. That I think is underpinning some of the warning posts (well, apart from the hostile ones from we both know who). I have a Lab/spaniel cross who is an absolute delight and wonderful with kids - but he is constant hard work, because he's clever.

You can't guarantee anything about a new dog's character, and that's especially the case with a rescue, where you may not even be able to choose the breed or age, and you can't have any influence over some of the most important things that underpin character - like parentage, early upbringing and socialisation, adverse experiences, etc. Do you need/want them to be friendly with other dogs? Or are you happy for those long walks to be quite lonely?

The same applies to things like separation anxiety. Many trainers/behaviourists advise you shouldn't leave a puppy alone at all until they're seven months old and you can't know for certain whether your rescue will be okay until they are or they're not. If they're not, you have a very long road to travel. Are you ready to have a dog either with you or with a sitter all the time?

It sounds like you're really well set up to look after a dog. But having personally jumped in with both feet, and a lot more optimism than experience, getting a dog is like inviting one of those cartoon bombs into your life. It hisses for about three minutes then BOOM. At least with a puppy from a breed that suits family life you are stacking the odds in your favour (assuming that you're careful about the breeder) (and there's a whole thread on here about how hard it can be to get a rescue from the UK. I didn't even try as I was in a rented house and couldn't build the fences up).

I would do a shortlist of dogs that might be good with family life and can cope on days when perhaps you can't manage the long walks. Think about the bad days - do they need to be okay alone? Dog-friendly? Do you have younger nieces or nephews that will visit? Existing cats? Barky or not? Needs specialist working dog training (collies might well do, working gundogs too)? Are you fine with paying for daycare and sitters? who will take them when you're on holiday? what are their circumstances?

I genuinely don't want to piss on anyone's cornflakes. But you might be better looking at, say, an Aussie Labradoodle (which is KC registered in Australia, and not a first generation cross-breed) and comes in a range of sizes, sheds less than most dogs, and has been bred for temperament and being bright and trainable.

With respect, all dogs need training, and Labs don't need any more or less than any other dog. Labs are very easy to train. They do mature later, but they still learn. Mine was 2 when I got him. A lock down pup, so socialisation window missed, and no training but he got the basics very quickly.

There pros and cons of both. Border collies aren't the easiest for your first dog, but choosing one from show lines, not working (and definitely not working stock raised in a barn away from all the normal sights and sounds of family life) would likely decrease the drive to work, whilst remaining very trainable and fun. Find a great breeder and your money means they are less likely to go blind, have hip or elbow dysplasia, sensory neuropathy...because both parents will have been health tested. You will get lifelong support and advice, very valuable since this is your first dog, and if you ever needed to rehome the breeder will insist on them coming back to them, definitely not a shelter. Most importantly they will have carefully socialised and habituated, which you will have to continue, to make them as confident as possible in our crazy, noisy, human world. But you might have to spend some time on a waiting list. Rooting out a really good breeder is not easy either! But if they do all of the above you can rest easy knowing you haven't made them rich! An out of hours emergency c-section could cost £6k then there is food, heating, cleaning, equipment, 4 weeks sleeping next to the pen, all the hours of training...you do well if you cover your costs. Even doing everything "right" some pups turn into dogs with serious problems.

Rescue shelters mean you are likely to get a dog quicker, but you don't know whether their parents were healthy, how inbred they are or what their early life experiences were. Collies are often very noise and movement sensitive, especially if they weren't exposed to traffic, kids on skateboards, motorbikes etc whilst very young. They are also not the most friendly and sociable of breeds. Can you exercise a dog who is scared of traffic and/or dogs? You can do a lot with training, meds and love. But an initial consultation with a veterinary behaviourist is around the £600-700 mark. Dogs behave so differently in a shelter that it is difficult to accurately assess what they will be like in a new home. Loads of people hit the jackpot and have the best experience, the dog is perfect for them. But the costs, financial, emotional and loss of freedom when things go wrong can be really high.

And before I get a string of "but my border collie was" ,every dog is an individual. There are lazy collies, social butterfly collies, biker collies... But it is a case of weighting the dice and general traits. Thirty years of training dogs, living with dogs, working my own dogs, this is my experience.

Doesn't matter to me where you source them, more that you choose a dog that you can provide a full life for.

I would also add that when many people say they want "intelligent" they really mean "biddable".

You don't want a dog who learns what you teach them, then figures out how to avoid doing what they've been taught

I think it's so hard to ask on here about what breed may suit you.
Everyone has their preferences and so will go with that.
What I would say is don't get a working line of dog for your first dog.
Other than that, do your research, figure out what kind of dog will suit your lifestyle and requirements eg, exercise, grooming, training and go from there.
Good luck! It's very exciting.

then figures out how to avoid doing what they've been taught

That only happens if you let them though.

Or they are off to entertain themselves!
One of mine can open front doors including the bin cupboard....

@coffeesaveslives honestly everyone said how easy they are. Ours is 3 now and he's got easier but it's been rough

Or they are off to entertain themselves!

Because they haven't been trained to make better decisions.

One of mine can open front doors including the bin cupboard....

Great that you've trained it to do this 👍 shows what is possible.