Help for a newbie - dog

[Ilovecashews]

As a family we love animals but in the past 15 years only had cats. I have now discovered that daughter is allergic to cats (not badly) and she’s always wanted a dog anyway. We have also discovered that she is neurodivergent and have agreed that having an animal she wants and will certainly love would do her good, a lot of good. We have always adopted for the usual reasons. I don’t know what to do in this case though. We could go to the local shelter and pick the saddest/oldest/sickest dog and be totally fine with that. However she’s met a few border collies and loved their character, and I can see her taking an active role in training, teaching tricks, running around most of the day with one/a puppy if we went down that road. The rest of the family would be onboard with that too. I know that puppies are lots of work etc, but I’ve done harder things for my daughters so that’s something I can do.

The problem I have is the morality of it. Paying for a dog, having another dog pregnant for my pleasure, knowing that one dog in a shelter is going to miss on a frankly fabulous life because I wanted to pick a breed.

Can you help me decide by telling me about your experiences on all of the above?
Thank you

Nope.

There is no way you can ever guarantee who a dog will bond with. Some dogs will bond with the whole family, others with only one person. It isn't always the primary care giver or the person who most wants the dog to be theirs. Dogs are sentient beings, it's not like getting a toy. The dog will decide who it most likes to be around. Will your daughter cope if it turns out not to be her?

We shall agree to disagree.

Because they haven't been trained to make better decisions

😂 I wish it would be possible to train a dog to make choices !

It is. That's what dog training is all about.

All I can say is that you must have a programmable dog that cannot think for itself and never questions anything.
Please don't ever get a Livestock Protection breed 😂

I've trained many. All dogs think for themselves.

Haven't you ever trained recall on cue, or sit on cue? You are teaching your dog to decide to respond to the cue. Then you condition it.

I’m an agility trainer, experienced owner of rescues and I don’t feel I could give a border collie what it needs. They are a massive gamble behaviourally.

After two tears of being turned down for another rescue after we lost our last dog we bought a border terrier. Fun, fit (often the choices of vets) active and fun to train. Mine does both agility and Rally obedience as well as Parkour. Loves it all. Also loves chilling out whilst we work.

Dogs are a way of life. They are not an add on. I have taught many children agility and most get bored or demotivated eventually. The dog will be your responsibility therefore will bond with you. My husband and I share dog care as he WFH and even so she is slightly more responsive to me as I do the bulk of the training. Dogs bond to those with value. It’s as simple as that.

We've got a collie x lab...and she's perfect. Easy to train, super clever, also super chill. Puts herself to bed when it gets dark 😂 Both parents are working farm dogs (mum a sheepdog, dad a gundog).

This is a good point. Our cats adored my quiet, rather withdrawn autistic child growing up. The dog we had then, though, preferred to spend time with the louder, livelier members of the family.

Being easy doesn't mean they don't need a lot of work and training though, it just means they're easier to train than other breeds.

All young dogs need lots of work, training and input.

Of course I have trained my dogs, I am neither stupid nor a novice owner. I have reared 9 LGD from puppies over the last 50 years, with no behavioural issues.

A LGD does not unquestioningly obey you like a gundog or collie will. Its brain works in a different way so you have to learn to understand its way of thinking and train it accordingly.

But I know you will tell me I'm wrong because a dog is a dog is a dog. Right? Until you get one that isn't.

This is not, however, the place for a discussion on training, so as you said, we shall have to agree to disagree.

@HappiestSleeping well, yes, but that's kind of my point - most owners don't want a dog who can easily outsmart them and who needs loads of training and input. They want an easygoing, biddable pet who is happy to learn tricks and commands but who doesn't then want to learn the contents of their toy box and how to turn the washing machine on!

This has disaster written all over it and the sad thing is it's the poor dog that will suffer.

You do NOT a get a pet, especially a dog to make a child feel better. A dog is not a toy.

You are getting a dog for all the wrong reasons and you are going to end up with a nervous dog and will most likely get rid of it back to a rescue if it came from one.

I hate these posts, they sicken me/

I would say that the dogs most likely to outsmart you would be terriers, having trained the vast majority of breeds 😂Collies are really quite compliant dogs and whilst intelligent aren't independent thinkers for the most part. They constantly crave direction and interaction which is what makes them difficult to live with. That alongside the fact all dogs need breed specific fulfilment in order to be content and happy. It is very hard to give that to a collie tbh in a pet home. My terrier has several walks a week in woodland where she can 'hunt' and snuffle around and that keeps her level. A dog that has been hardwired to control movement is a very difficult one to fulfil, although there are exceptions.

Hmm, I disagree that collies aren't independent thinkers - they are, especially when they're not given the exercise and stimulation that they require.

A well rounded, trained and stimulated collie will happily snooze the day away, but one who is bored and under-exercised will quickly find ways to get your attention and to get you to do what they want you to do!

My sister has just got a rescue puppy - chihuahua x sausage dog, pups were born in the rescue and hand reared.
I have a collie, get an easy dog like they did, not a collie!

Of course you have trained many dogs...

Collies offer up behaviour because they have been bred to. So what do you want me to do please please please, ok I'll try this, no, ok this yes? That's not independent thinking per se. That is wanting to work. Terriers and other independent breeds, hounds etc have been bred to do a job independent of us. So they have problem solving skills that far exceed ours. How do I get that treat? Ok, so last time, I had to do this so I'll try again. Or last time I opened the door and stood by my training cones. I'll try that. So similar to us but different in motivation. Collies have been bred over many generations to want to work with us and watch every move. Independent dogs let them loose in and area and watch them work.

ALL dogs go rogue in some way if their needs aren't met, their motivation is just different.

I think we're just using the same words differently @Newpeep - my basic point is they most people want a dog who is reasonably compliant and who isn't going to spend hours looking for entertainment because it needs more than two walks and a bit of mental stimulation chucked in.

A collie who doesn't get what it needs will quickly develop undesirable behaviours in order to try and get what it needs - whereas a calmer, more placid breed will happily enjoy a walk where they come back when called and then snooze all day, which is what most owners really want when they say intelligent

Case in point. I our agility class. Hard wired collie. Hard wired terrier.

Collie - will do the whole course and then do it again, coming back to his handler and looking at her for direction. If she stops to talk to the trainer dog will do the course or elements of it again unless she holds him. He wants to work and work with her.

Terrier - will do course BUT if the snacks are a bit slow or too few then will do a few things and go and sniff out the mice that live at the side of the barn. Will come back and then get a treat, maybe do a bit then go off again when the treat dispenser is having something explained. Needs calling back to try again.

The collie NEEDS input and NEEDS to work. Terrier - will do it for snacks, shits and giggles but would be just as happy let loose on the farm to catch vermin. Which she hasn't needed training to do it's just hard wired.

😆😂😄

This.

My hound has zero, and I mean zero desire to be obedient but can be bribed to do anything.

Even sit, she will hear the command, look around and nose in the air and if she can’t see or smell a treat she won’t sit. If you have something in your hand she can’t get her butt down fast enough. Plenty of training classes later and we just cope by always having treats to hand as she’s bred to work independently and to trust her own instincts over being instructed.

Breeds and bloodlines make such a difference to train-ability.

Actually, I won't tell you that a dog is a dog etc. They are all different. And I can show you many gundog and collies that don't unquestionably obey anything.

But in all the instances you describe, you are training the dog to decide to respond to you, hence it is making a choice.

Yup, 30 years of it.