Stud Fees

[ConciseQueen]

I have found my bitch a lovely dog to sire pups. The owner of the dog is pretty relaxed, doesn’t want a puppy but has asked me to make an offer of stud fees. He’s stressed nothing is guaranteed from the dogs’ meeting etc.

Neither dog is worth much (lurchers) but they are lovely so I will be able to sell the puppies to cover vet costs if the time comes. How much would you offer for the stud fee?

Most people don’t want an animal from a rescue. The creation of puppies/kittens/chickens does not affect the numbers in rescues. It’s two different markets
There is a definite issue with not getting animals out of rescues into homes that needs tackling.
Traditionally people bought puppies either from someone who had a litter at home or surplus show stock who are now vilified if they breed but registered breeders are fine who are essentially the better end of puppy farming.

Oh just stop feeding it.

If genuine, the poster won't listen, doesn't care and will do what the hell they want, as usual.

If it is a GF thread, these handwringing posts are just giving it what it wants.

(I realise that by adding this post, I am doing the same btw).

Op I love my dog too and so does everyone else.
He's still got his balls and I'm always asked if I will let him breed with their dogs because he's cute .
I could make lot's of money easily but I always say no and people get offended.
He's still got his balls because he's got a very bad heart murmur that the vets say having an anaesthetic would probably kill him and if he was to father puppies they would inherit it too!
You couldn't tell just by looking at him just like you can't tell if the dog you want to mate with yours is healthy 🤷‍♀️.

I have dogs. I would love a lurcher in the future. My only port of call would be a rescue. I could never put my dogs through the trauma of pregnancy and the risks that could happen.

@eatdrinkandbemerry My chocolate lab boy was exactly the same. He was still intact as health problems when he was younger meant the op could kill him. He was an absolutely gorgeous boy with a fantastic temperament but there's no way I would have ever used him as a stud and put some poor female dog through having to give birth. We had a neighbour with a female chocolate lab who just couldn't understand why I wouldn't let them mate and make money from selling the puppies. There are some things more important than money and the welfare of your dog should be one of them.

OP, please don't. It's really not in the animals' best interests.

The impression that one throws two dogs together in a field and lets nature take its course couldn't be further from the truth. There are legal and ethical responsibilities these days in breeding pups.

You'll need to know what to look for and feel for (sometimes including internal exams) to know she is ready for mating. Bitches do not stand rock steady and some can be very aggressive when mated. Would you know if that aggression was because she wasn't ready or just being a grumpy old bag? Holding a bitch down to mate her can result in injury to her or your dog.

Do you know what a slip mating is? When he ejaculates into her but hadn't tied properly, raining semen all over the place. How long to wait before trying again? The chances of the mating being successful.

What if the dog jumps on and off with nothing happening, distressing the bitch in the process? If he's not mated before this is likely to happen. No bitch wants an inexperienced dog jumping on and off her day after day whilst you chaps learn by hit and miss how to mate dogs!

Do you know about the care and feeding of the inwhelp bitch? Do you know your legal position if the bitch gets an infection after the mating? What if there are problems with the puppies? Cleft pallet? Disabilities?

It's not a friendly arrangement. I'd be concerned about any bitch owner who wasn't demanding and wanting the best service for their girl.

If, having read that, you're still adamant you want to breed her, please please get her properly health tested and ask an experienced breeder to supervise the mating. Otherwise, I think you're putting your own vanity above her welfare.

This thread has been OTT.

Thank you to those who have offered calm grounded advice in relation to things to look out for when breeding.

There is one error that keeps coming up in this thread. Rescue dogs are not inter-changeable with puppies from loving homes. So many posts seem to be implying or outright insisting that a lurcher pup from my litter will prevent another rescue lurcher from finding a home. That is far too simplistic.

The aggressive posts seem to be demanding that I send all potential lurcher owners to the nearest shelter. That won’t happen. It’s just not appropriate for lots of people. I’m sorry this is news to so many of you. Most likely my puppies will go to families that would never consider a rescue, either because they have children, or cats or other pets and would not want a reactive dog. They wouldn’t want to risk the heartache of getting it wrong, or they’d be turned down by a rescue for having a cat.

Lots of people would prefer to take a chance with a puppy that has been raised in my home and played in my garden and been looked out for by my vet. Right now there is another MN thread about an already-twice-rehomed rescue - many people don’t want that increased risk of not knowing a dog’s history.

They are a different market to the rescue people. However much you wish everyone went to rescues, please understand that many people are actually not ever going to do that. There is a lot of misdirected anger towards me about this and I’m afraid I’ve ignored those posts. (And the sweary drama ones).

There is also a lot of prejudice on this thread about lurcher owners ( I also think that has coloured a couple of replies). But those prejudices don’t apply here.

And, again, I am not in it for the money neither is the owner of the sire.

Is the stud health’s tested with a full pedigree to check for breed coefficient against your bitch?

my WCS had a litter 4 yrs ago and the stud fee was 500£

You may not be in it for the money but you certainly haven't considered the real implications of taking your girl to an inexperienced stud service on a casual basis.

Nothing to do with rescue dogs or lurches. Just simply what is best for your girl.

There is no ‘full pedigree’ with lurchers because they are all crosses, that’s what makes them lurchers. I understand (from my vet!) that this decreases a lot of breed specific concerns that might otherwise need to be screened for. Although, in light of this thread, I will develop that conversation with her when I see her.

I’d quite like to know what “loving responsible family homes” would buy puppies from parents that have had no health or genetic testing. It’s the absolute bare minimum for breeding.

a glance over by a vet, with a she’s healthy is not the same thing at all.

@PinotPony who are you replying to when you are saying don't use your male dog as a stud dog/stud service and you talk about there being more to it than a handsome head and good nature? The op has a bitch that she is considering getting pregnant.

I’ve had lurchers. Lovely, lovely dogs, in fact always my first choice. But they aren’t suitable for cat homes, given their innate high prey drive. If yours lives with a cat amicably, she’s the exception not the rule. I don’t have a lurcher now as I have cats so immediately ruled them out when getting our most recent dog.

Also, crossing dogs does not magically remove the risk of hereditary disease. The genes are just as easily passed on. It’s a common myth, but it indicates you have an awful lot to learn about breeding.

You have no logical reason to bring 10+ puppies into the world. And I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a mating, but I have, and it is brutal for the female. And it can go very badly wrong, leaving her with internal damage. I am truly baffled as to why you want to put a dog you claim to love through it.

I've edited my post now...

I still wouldn't take a virgin bitch to be mated by a dog owner who appears to have no experience and no idea what his "stud service" is worth in fees. He might well own a lovely dog, but that means nothing if neither he nor OP know what they're doing,

The sire (and owner) are experienced.

All my lurchers have lived with cats and all my cats have lived with lurchers. It is another reason why a puppy from this home may be preferred by potential owners to a lurcher from a rescue (who may have been worked etc).

Just as an aside, OP, in these financial times, you may find people who were “reeeeallllyyy keeeennn” on having a puppy off you, may suddenly have a change of heart when they actually arrive.

The breeder of two of my dogs normally has a waiting list as long as her arm, but the last litter she had a puppy left over. Absolutely unheard of. She is in the position where she can keep him, fortunately, but are you prepared to end up with 1/2/3/4 extra dogs that don’t end up with homes depending on the size of the litter?

May life treat you the way you treat animals. Like shit. You're an idiot and you have no morals whatsoever. Vile.

I think there was a shortage of puppies because of lifestyle change with the pandemic, but people are reverting to office work, the COL increase has made people reconsider, etc. I'm on the Facebook group of the stud Kennel that our puppy was bred from. Breeders there seem to be finding that they have one or two puppies unspoken for, or have people with a last minute change i of heart. This is a group where usually people are joining waiting lists of over a year to get their desired combination of bitch and sire.

The rescue that we got our big dog from, years ago, has seen a massive influx of pure bred Labradors, too. All cute as puppies, but no training and suddenly they're big, bouncy dogs who pull on a lead, counter surf, and chew/mouth everything. Our lab is 5 months old and we've put in hours and hours of training, starting from the day we got her, and she's small as labs go, but I can see how it must quickly be a problem.

It sounds like you're committed to this plan @ConciseQueen . I hope your dog comes out of it well. I wouldn't risk it with my puppy (when she is old enough). I love her too much.

For those saying ‘get a rescue’ I think you need to realise that having a rescue dog comes with risks, you don’t anything about the history of the dog, be 100% sure breed it is etc. Yes shelters are crowded at the moment especially with the XL bully ban but that’s no a reason to get a dog from one.
Being in a shelter and then being rehomed can be traumatic for the dog, it’s a lot to take on. There have also been cases where a shelter hasn’t been honest about a dogs bite history.

@ConciseQueen you still haven’t explained how putting your dog through a painful experience is something you’d do to an animal you supposedly love.

As the owner of the site isn't in it for the money then pay no stud fees just travel costs. You too can then just give the pups away for free or enough to cover the vet bills (however you've chosen to do this to your dog so really you should pay). If you want to get people to pay - to should commitment why don't you give all the money to a dog shelter? Then you are off setting the puppies you are adding to population.

Sire not site.

This is some weird old logic. I presume husbands/boyfriends love their partners but willingly get them pregnant despite pregnancy and childbirth being dangerous and painful? There are enough children in the world after all. Shouldn’t they just adopt?

Not everyone wants a rescue dog - I wouldn’t. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

My neighbour had a litter of a very desirable breed in the Autumn. She generally sells all puppies very quickly (she’s experienced and does all necessary tests etc). She’s actually part of a programme working to try to remove some genetic weaknesses from that particular breed.

she cannot find owners for the puppies. She has four 13 week old puppies now being offered for half their normal price and still struggling to find good owners

I planned to have a litter from one of my bitches a couple of years ago.
KC registered, shown, health tested, good hip and elbow scores- same for the stud, who I also own. Back up and support from other experienced breeders.
I spent a huge amount of money on all the health tests/scores on both dogs, progesterone testing to see when she was ready etc. Had a waiting list for puppies, and was keeping one myself.

The result? Only one puppy, who had died before birth. My bitch got Pyometra and ended up being spayed, and we could have lost her if I hadn’t been so aware of the signs. It was heartbreaking.
Are you prepared for that kind of situation?
I guess you wouldn’t be too much out of pocket, as you are obviously not spending money on health tests etc. But you could lose your much loved bitch.

Will you take back any pup at any stage of its life? I have friends who have ended up with unruly adolescents being returned to them, and they then have to put in all the work to retrain the dog before they can even consider finding it a new home. Do you have the space/knowledge/commitment to do this?

Breeding is not for the faint hearted, or for someone to try and make loads of money.
It should be about trying to better the breed, and improve health and conformation within that breed.