Absolute Dogs

[FatNoMoreSue]

Well well! Facebook is interesting isn’t it?

So the Kennel Club numbers are false then?

I’ve bought some of their courses in the past but find their marketing a bit much.

On the dog training advice and support Facebook page I previously saw a response to a question about AD saying that although they are positive trainers & the games are fun, they don’t recommend them because they are puppy farmers so it seems it is well known.

I don't think this is the original FB post, but if you go through some of the comments it's actually shocking:
https://www.facebook.com/laura.ingall.96/posts/pfbid02MQNxQeJAcVyipUPQoMCxJqbtcTwVujM4a4VHmEQcwQvLLKt6PV3kndPLVay4KsXfl

It seems she has registered hundreds of puppies under just one of the kennel affixes used.

I don't think anyone is questioning their training - I use the same ethics and science, as does my agility trainer, as do the vast majority of my trainer friends. It's not an unusual approach now if you keep up to date with the science and behaviour understanding. What is different is AD charge about 10x what my (also professional) trainer charges!

It's what goes on behind the scenes and the way things are done. Purely profit driven. I have been there. I have seen this. I have spoken to people directly involved.

The sad thing is people like this are pushing change in the agility and it's actually becoming harder to compete with 'pet' dogs due to the changes that are being driven through - which ultimately is tied up with these breeding practices - smaller and smaller wcs for example just to get the odd one to win to keep the money rolling in. We've lost sight of what it should be - a fun activity to enrich your relationship with your dog.

So why has she admitted to overbreeding? Seems odd to stop breeding if she isn’t doing anything wrong…

Take your fangirl blinkers off and go and look at the KC numbers. She’s bred HUNDREDS of dogs, using different affixes etc to get round the rules.

Again SHE ADMITS HERSELF THAT SHES DOING WRONG.

They aren't pro dog trainers, their courses are 💩

Training is fine although it is incredibly similar to Susan Garrett who has been offering the same type of training for years and years before she mentored Lauren. Susan has also issued a statement saying that she had broken off any contact 10 years ago over Laurens breeding views

@Newpeep do you really think that she is making a change in the agility scene?

What changes are making it harder for pet dogs?

Even Susan Garrett has come out and talked about how she had to remove her mentorship of Lauren due to some questionable behaviour. She also said she gave her advise on breeding and the treatment of her own dogs which she ignored.

This is a prime example of why the KC is losing (has lost?) the trust of so many people.

That this has been an open secret for an agility champion, that they have got round the rules of registering dogs - means that multiple people within the KC turned a blind eye to this too.

The KC is not fit for purpose. It remains, at heart, a Vicctorian organisation with Victorian values about mastering nature and optimising profits. There is a real need for an independent organisation whose primary focus is the health, welfare and happiness of pet and working dogs and their supply. The KC is not it.

Not just her - there are others like her too. Mostly profit and business driven pushing for a real change to how courses are set and judged.

Greater distances which mean longer courses, more technical handling needed to complete them, tighter times. All these people own very profitable businesses so it's in their interest to say 'come to me and pay me to continue your hobby'.

There has been some very positive change on safety and standardisation but a lot of people are unhappy with a lot of the other things happening and new people entering the activity are decreasing (I am involved with running a KC show and have been for over 10 years). There has been a big divide happening between 'grass roots' competitors for who agility is an add on to their dog's life and those who make a lot of money from it! Natural possibly but a lot of the small hobby clubs which are very affordable have disappeared as they can't compete with the businesses on flexibility and investment so it's become less accessible to a lot of people. My private trainer charges over double what I used to pay in a very good experienced hobby club as it's a job not just covering costs. I got to grade 5 only training with them with the odd workshop. These clubs have all but disappeared now.

As for the training they have completely ripped off Susan Garrett (after receiving her help and friendship) and Lesley McDevitt. I know people personally who have been on the receiving end of LL's abuse and who have had terrible trouble with puppies bought from her in good faith, early on in her breeding 'career'.

I also show manage a KC Show. (wonder if we are near each other!) I see most of the changes as positive and they are not being driven by Lauren Langman!

The bigger courses are so much safer for the dogs.

I also think that agility trainers should be able to charge a sensible training fee.

Long gone are the days of kc clubs charging £3.00 for a session! However so many of the trainers just "did" agility and had no training or qualifications of any sort.

The quality of the training is so much higher than it used to be and the equipment so much safer. All of that costs money to be sustainable

I agree that many KC clubs have disappeared but dont really see that as a bad thing tbh - looking at the way KC is heading.

As long as the judges set appropriate courses for the lower grades the grass roots of agility will survive.

I am old enough to have seen so many changes and heard so many whinges but the joy of the sport always wins through

Yes I agree. There have been many positive changes over the last 5 - 10 years and the standard (and safety) of training has really improved but when you get someone who has a very capable dog, trained to a good standard not even knowing how to attempt a grade 1/2 course then really that's not positive change! They should be about building confidence and testing very basic skills not something normally seen at the higher grades.

The KC club I used to attend sent their trainers off for CPD and also training pretty frequently so they are not all the same. Some were people who just did it but a lot did invest in making sure things were up to date safe and appropriate. I taught for them for many years and we always shared best practice, 'team taught' to help each other out and any new trainer was supervised for quite some time by those of us with more experience and had had formal training so the quality was good with a lot of them (but I agree not all). We also have a local business who thinks it's acceptable to drag dogs over equipment by force, scruff them and pin them to the floor for barking and spray them with water if they get something wrong. There are good and bad in both the hobby and professional sector!

but when you get someone who has a very capable dog, trained to a good standard not even knowing how to attempt a grade 1/2 course then really that's not positive change!

I dont understand this comment if they are trained to a good standard they should have no issue with a grade 1/2 course? Training has improved so much in the recent years. When I started out it was horrendous, no drive or motivation taught at all , straight onto the equipment etc.

You will always get bad trainers and actually the likes of the professional agility handlers and trainers have upped the standard of training and the level of agility is so much higher as a result.

Like any training people need to do their research etc and avoid the dragging over equipment with leads etc - but these will be the cheap untrained people not the professional handlers

If we are talking about setting of courses then that is totally different to the issues of training

There are a lot of people who worked for them who disagree with you. Pictures of the conditions their litters are kept in are inexcusable. If all was rosy n the AD garden as you suggest, why would Lauren issue a statement, not defending herself but conceding that her breeding operation got out of hand and closing it down immediately?

There are a lot of people commenting on the situation who knew her, but I'm afraid yours is a bit of a lone, unpersuasive voice in the wilderness. If not, how do you account for the onslaught of "lies" from people who know them? No smoke without fire...

@Pupinski I wasn't backing them up, I was (in a slightly sarcastic manner) asking the person who was backing them up to account for the KC numbers which clearly show overbreeding

Sorry, I meant to respond to @LovedayStar ...

I don't think LL has admitted to welfare issues and isn't the reason she's giving for deciding to stop breeding.

If we are talking about setting of courses then that is totally different to the issues of training

I think the two are intrinsically linked. I trained as a judge in 2016 and even then we were warned that the perception on social media in particular was that beginner dogs were more capable than they were, with training videos from certain trainers, courses being set and hailed as 'grade appropriate' and little snippets (not the whole picture as is the norm on SM) of these 'beginner' dogs being shown. Most people on the course set way too complex a course for the lower grades when asked to (we had to set three courses in advance and have them assessed). At our show this year things actually looked very sensible for the lower grades and as a result we had very good feedback but I have seen things that have made me question whether judges understand the vast majority of beginner dogs at all. I tend to find those that teach have a better grasp over those who don't.

The argument has been that dogs need complicated courses so they are 'ready for the next grade'. No. They need appropriate courses for THAT grade. I work in education. You'd not give a year 11 an A level paper...

As a total beginner (one G1 agility win under our belts) I've never had an issue knowing how to approach a G1-3 course. Getting my dog round it without her going to say hello to the judge/go sniff a leaf/decide she wants to do the dogwalk twice cos it's the funnest thing ever is another matter. But no issue at all with course complexity.

Also as a beginner, I had no idea about any of this, and am horrified.

You need really to be training above the level you are competing.

I have never had issues with the low grades recently (although have not done a lower grade for a while) but all the ones in our show and from comments from people at our training groups where happy with the courses in most shows. The courses are much much better than they were years ago. (When there were loads of horrid boxes to do)

Grade 1 usually a nice flowing course with maybe a side change of handling so a rear or front cross in an area with lots of space nice straight on weave entry

Chuck in some handling for grade 2 eg snake line or round the back or ketcher/pivot.

Luckily the judges we use are experienced and we know will give good courses.

Sorry thread is going off topic we can blame LL for a lot but not this!

Can anyone link to the original accusation?

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0HrjmVUfomQss9GL2WsBWqzLkg7Xv2AfZ4qY2SUS2n6ZbpEu3DcStXBSe4gMinZ2zl&id=625420610

You really need to read the comments - there is more detail in them.
Susan Garrett has also commented on the whole farrago. She is not a fan of LL, who she used to mentor.