Absolute Dogs

[FatNoMoreSue]

Well well! Facebook is interesting isn’t it?

@janie36 breeding to maintain your line is all well and good but with COI's of 27% surely this is putting your own desire over the health of the dogs and potential litters. Correct, high COI doesn't always mean an unhealthy pup, but it increases the likelihood of it. Why would anyone who had the welfare of their dogs as their top priority do that? If introducing new blood equals pups with less drive/natural instinct surely there's a game for that? Can she not train them to be what she wants? 🫠

My own dog has a COI of 7.9% and sometimes displays less than desirable traits, after doing some digging with someone very experienced in the field, we found that he came from lines which display these traits often and that's with the low numbers. So you can't tell me that a COI of 27% is okay. And also, a dog trainer and lover using the argument 'not ideal but not illegal' is hardly credible is it!?

@janie36 I also wouldn't buy from a breeder that isn't testing because again, stupid.

I never said it was okay, I just said it’s not illegal. I don’t agree with breeding full stop. I bet many of the top athlete dogs are inbred. It’s been done for a very long time in both dogs, horses and purebred cats and it’s why genetic diseases are prevalent amongst purebred animals. But I’m also not down to join in on Internet hostility as it really is ugly. Perhaps it’s good that this case highlighted this issue, but we need to look at the wider practices of breeders not just scrutinise one. Many KC registered breeders breed far more puppies than this lady has. If that’s their full-time occupation they will be breeding a fair few to be living off the income.

I wouldn’t buy off a breeder full stop, but many people do. Most people aren’t going to registered breeders to get their crossbred cavapoohavapoo’s. So hopefully this incident will make people more aware of what to look out for.

No Janie most "top athlete" dogs are not, top handlers who breed (at least in border collies) are scrupulous with health tests and giving their very occasional litters the very best start in life!

Really? Please give us an example of one of these many KC breeders that registered more than 30 litters in 2021!

It doesn't happen its a massive number only seen in puppy farming.

Everyone is still missing the point. Puppy farming is organised crime. To take down puppy farming you have to do a mixture of changing legislation (to which there is no perfect answer) and take out individuals. She will not be one at the top of the chain. If it’s true. That doesn’t mean she isn’t culpable but if you’ve seen the private breeding agreements in the sports world, which will stand up in court by the way, you can see how people become complicit without intending to. I am not suggesting that’s what happened here. But even the one doing the manipulation and being coerced has also be coerced somehow. It’s VERY complicated.

Shoddy practice is always due to a network, not just one person. Sometimes you don’t realise you’re in it before it’s too late.

I agree with you. However one thing I would add is that a council licence requires you to have a licence for (in L’a case 14 bitches). You can only breed these on your premises. So to breed more than 14 bitches is likely to be done via co owns. There will be a private contract for this. Some
people will say the litter will be raised at the breeders home. But, per the licence whether the breeder owns that dam or not, it’s still considered there’s if they bred it. Now, you can see how things get complicated because you might breed it but then enter into a co own or guardianship contract which is a private agreement between 2 parties. These contracts can still be upheld in court. They may contradict the licence but it doesn’t mean they can’t act outwith the licence. If you’ve ever seen a co own or guardianship contracts, there is terminology that you can use to threaten people / silence people. It’s all a chain of events. People enter into such contracts because they want a dog from a specific line but some of the terms people agree to (sometimes without knowing the true affects), gets people into a lot of trouble. And for me, this is why the hearsay and contextual evidence is very important. It doesn’t mean she has done anything wrong in the eyes of the law (well except if you haven’t upheld welfare standards where you’re responsible). But it’s very murky waters because a Co own also has a level of responsibility per their contract… and so everybody gets implicated.

What people should really be learning from this is not I’m supporting or defending Lauren but how they themselves may accidentally get involved in practices which support poor animal welfare with little room for getting out of the situation. Prosecution rates either way can be very low. Self preservations kicks in.

I understand your point but the dog had an ANNPE. You cannot categorically say it was due to the COI.

Actually it does for the reasons stated above. If it doesn’t appear on the KC website then people have done other things to ensure their kennel name is not attributed to large numbers of dogs. KC registration and a kennel affix doesn’t mean someone’s not up to puppy farming.

Lots of breeders 'line' breed with nothing like the COI. My dog is as they want to maintain health and temperament. She doesn't have a high COI.

@Maddoghouse How would she accidentally get involved in this and not be at the top? All these dogs are hers and bred under her name. So even if she didn't have more than 14 bitches at her premises, then it was still her who arranged or sanctioned the breedings of those that were co-owned otherwise they wouldn't have been registered under her name. She bred more than a hundred dogs per year in the last years. That's a fact.

Agreed. One of mine is out of field trialling lines, from a breeder with 40+ years experience (and who has bred less than 20 litters). COI just over 5%

I have a WCS from a breeder who owns his granny, his mum, his uncle and his sister, he has field trialling lines from 3 generations back on both sides and a COI of 4%. To be fair that is low for cockers, the all-breed average is 10% and for workers I understand it's higher. His breeder selects stud dogs for her occasional litters based on desired temperament, good joints and overall health, and as part of overall health she considers genetic diversity is important. (She also doesn't breed from adolescents...or bitches older than 7...or back to back litters... and she knows the name and circumstances of every puppy she's ever bred... but those are all other issues.)

We know that high COI is bad for individuals and for a breed as a whole, it ultimately impacts things like fertility and litter size, longevity, prevalence of hereditary health conditions, and incidence of immune problems and some cancers. Maintaining genetic diversity is important.
The opposite ie line breeding, which means breeding two closely related individuals together (not the same as breeding to maintain your own line, which doesn't have to involve inbreeding, it's a choice) is what you do when you want to fix or keep a desired characteristic - for example, size. [Entirely coincidental I'm sure that LL was breeding very small, fast cockers which a lot people think are undesirably small...hmmm....] When you choose line breeding/high COI to get more of one particular desired characteristic, though, that is a choice to compromise other things. And you may get a higher number of less healthy individuals, or puppies who have other undesirable characteristics because you've put all the emphasis on getting your one top priority.
My boy's litter, with the low COI, are pretty diverse in size and personality, but they're all healthy, strong, well put together individuals with a good but not insane work drive who are a pleasure to live with.
It's a question of choices and risks and how you weigh them as a breeder and your personal priorities.

I’m surprised that they are remaining silent after one ‘opps’ statement.

'Loveday star' if I'm not very much mistaken is the same woman commenting on every single post on Facebook, spamming her own FB page with defense, adoration and love for Lauren. Almost cult like devotion. Oh and she's selling two of her own dogs for £200 on pets4homes. I mean, she can correct me if I'm wrong but it's funny she has the same name 😉

How would I calculate the COI for my DD’s WCS? Purely curiosity, she’s a perfect, 10 year old family pet, we don’t breed, show or compete.

@YourWinter you can get it from the KC website if your dog is KC registered. Not possible if unregistered/of unknown ancestry.
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/inbreeding-co-efficient/

Interestingly, when we were looking at breeders and puppies the higher (not Devongem high - well under 12%) COIs tended to be the line bred BUT were health tested and had more data than the lower COIs.

So you do need to take it in context. Personally I'd rather have a COI that is a bit higher but health tested but also know the history of the line and whether they are fit and healthy and free of behavioural quirks due to the COI than a lower COI and incomplete date or only one or two generations.

But I stress not as high as some of those Devongem examples. That's crazy.

Being involved in agility and with a small dog myself, they are breeding for size pure and simple. Most well bred WCS measure into medium. These are bred to measure into small so they are much more likely to win against the terriers and other smaller breeds IF you get the training right. By rights a WCS should measure into medium, certainly the males (under 43 cm at the withers) but some of the DG dogs are smaller than my terrier who is just under 35 cm (and fits her breed standard perfectly)!

For reference a COI of 25% is the equivalent of breeding a dog with its parent or breeding two full siblings together... higher than that means inbreeding over several generations.

Which I’m sure some people are aware of, but just to put that 27% into context. That’s not a bit of some dogs have a great grandparent in common - you’re looking at full on European royalty style inbreeding.

My eldest girl has a COI of 17. I love her to bits, but she has significant health issues and, frankly, her litter should not have been bred. I found out some years after I got her that her dam's littermate has the same issues. Knowing what I know how I would not return to that breeder, but, as a pet buyer, you don't necessarily know these things from the start.

In this case they were deliberately breeding spaniels small enough to measure into the 'small' category for kennel club shows. The small category is relatively uncompetitive compared with the larger categories. I'm not saying there aren't some great small dogs - there are - but there isn't the depth of competition. If you can breed a dog with the inherent agility skills of a good spaniel that never grows out of small then you have a winner.

Is breeding deliberately small examples good for the breed or the individual dog? No, of course not. But it's great for winning.

I've just looked my dog up - 4.3%. He is very healthy and has none of the health issues which can be associated with his breed so I guess that's why. His breeder is very experienced and cares very much about her dogs.

The more I find out about LL, the sicker I feel. I hate that I've given them money.

LL's now fallen on her sword or been pushed, and "stepped away" from AD. Tom has issued a statement on behalf of AD distancing himself and the business and saying he was only vaguely aware of the breeding (which sits oddly with litters from the same bitch being registered alternately as Devongems and Tom's kennel name, but hey) and wasn't her vet.

I would say that the small category is as competitive but numbers are smaller due to the way the KC define the sizes, therefore it is easier to get to prestigious events, therefore make a name, therefore make money. There are some cracking small dogs out there - my breed do well if the motivation is there - but they are not as fast as the WCS just due to conformation. I don't care. I wanted a pet who I could live a long, active and healthy life with and who would enjoy agility on the side. I'm not interested in making money from it (I have attended several national finals with my last rescue dog).

COI is only one measure of health of a dog BUT I'd argue once you go over 12.5 then it's really only going to be too big a risk, no matter what health tests you perform. You can't test for everything. Below that, if the line are good, healthy, robust dogs with the expected temperament for the breed then it's a bit more muddy. But direct matings I really can't see anything other than trouble.

“COI is only one measure of health of a dog BUT I'd argue once you go over 12.5 then it's really only going to be too big a risk, no matter what health tests you perform”

Of course it’s only one measure, but 27% - meaning more inbred than breeding with its own parent or full sibling, just by itself should horrify people…