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Absolute Dogs

169 replies

FatNoMoreSue · 06/08/2023 11:34

Well well! Facebook is interesting isn’t it?

OP posts:
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Clymene · 08/08/2023 14:42

I'm really shocked by this. I bought a few courses from them several years ago and ended up deleting my account because of the amount of spam.

I had no idea she bred dogs too. Just appalling.

FatNoMoreSue · 08/08/2023 14:54

I’d be very interested in where Tom earned his “behaviourist” title.

it’s high time he commented - he’s starting to appear VERY shady too.

OP posts:
RunJune · 08/08/2023 15:12

@FatNoMoreSue he will have done the absolute dogs ProDogTrainer course and topped up with sexier than a squirrel nonsense no doubt.

Sunrisemouse · 08/08/2023 15:14

I have read that there a two other breeding suffixes, is that included in the 700?

IngGenius · 08/08/2023 15:29

Information taken off the Kennel Club Info freely available for anyone to see.

The COI is hardly encouraging healthy breeding.

  • 12.5% = the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a grandfather to granddaughter mating, or the mating of a half-brother/sister
  • 25% = the genetic equivalent of a dog produced from a father to daughter mating, or the mating of full-brother/sister

HERE

Devongem-Litters-Summary-and-Data.xlsx - Google Drive

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1W9JOciEATLYnBPtSFndlw6UYLdfSFUCr/htmlview?usp=sharing&rtpof=true&sd=true&fbclid=IwAR0PATB1k_nn6tlllB1MW5wrQ3xdFJ9XZ2D9nYHEZjxZRzeN4ROvIDH1HVI&pli=1#

tabulahrasa · 08/08/2023 15:37

LeahFG · 08/08/2023 13:39

Just to clarify when I said that I have seen dogs used as breeding machines, that was in a rescue and entirely unrelated to anything to do with Absolute Dogs or Lauren. There is a whole lot of misinformation and conjecture on this thread. The question of the hour is has Lauren been breeding puppies in a puppy farm with little care for their welfare? There is no evidence of a puppy farm! Show me a photograph of cages of dogs with infected sores and covered in filth and dams cowering in the corner with bodies distorted by overbreeding, living in darkness and never seeing the light of day. That is a puppy farm! There is no proof or evidence of a lack of care. Someone is now quoting 700 puppies produced in one year... folks it was 17 years! What I have seen with my own eyes is a dam in really good health with 2 perfectly sized puppies running around on the grass with someone who was taking time to socialise them and making sure that any interaction they had with someone was positive. Sorry, but how is that a puppy farm, exactly?

Standard of basic care isn’t what makes a puppy farm... some puppy farms do have healthy dogs kept in clean safe environments.

It’s the numbers that make it a puppy farm - once they have over a certain number of dogs there’s no way you can possibly meet their mental and emotional welfare needs, it just isn’t possible when they’re being bred in large numbers.

They're literally farming dogs, like you would livestock. Except you’re not expecting the average cow or pig to go live in someone’s house.

YourCrackersMiLord · 08/08/2023 15:39

Fucking hell.

26 litters in one year (avg one every other week) and COIs going as high as 27%.

That's actually really very distressing.

Soggycushion · 08/08/2023 16:17

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this trial by social media regardless of what's happened.

Clymene · 08/08/2023 19:36

Soggycushion · 08/08/2023 16:17

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with this trial by social media regardless of what's happened.

I'm much less comfortable that someone who professes to be a dog lover is a puppy farmer.

LeahFG · 08/08/2023 20:17

tabulahrasa · 08/08/2023 15:37

Standard of basic care isn’t what makes a puppy farm... some puppy farms do have healthy dogs kept in clean safe environments.

It’s the numbers that make it a puppy farm - once they have over a certain number of dogs there’s no way you can possibly meet their mental and emotional welfare needs, it just isn’t possible when they’re being bred in large numbers.

They're literally farming dogs, like you would livestock. Except you’re not expecting the average cow or pig to go live in someone’s house.

If the dogs were all on the Devon Dogs land and all being raised by one person I would totally agree. It isn't possible, but the dams are all living in separate homes and as far as I have seen are given the best care and attention. I haven't seen all of them, but I have seen at 4 puppies and mums who were all incredibly healthy and didn't live on site. Lauren has a paralysed dog in her home who is looked after and has her own team of people who give her therapy and care daily. There are a number people who I know and trust who have either worked with Lauren or have a puppy from her who have only experienced the best care and attention given to their dogs and their health. Surely, that has to say something, they aren't all making it up? Some of the allegations on the original post are claiming that Blink is skin and bones, but there are loads of photographs and testimonials from people who have held her to refute those claims. I have seen Blink only a few days ago on a live training session and specifically looked at her body condition and it was fabulous for a 10 year old dog. If at least one allegation is a complete lie, how do you know others aren't? There are so many eye witnesses, including vets, breeders and other professionals who will vouch for her. Do their testimonies mean nothing?

What everyone is failing to mention is that she has a large staff team who help her care for dogs on site and off site, I have spoken to and seen these people making sure that the puppies are well socialised and cared for. A large team can easily care for 15 litters in a year, particularly if the dogs are co-owned. They are not farming dogs. There are no barns filled with puppies. I have personally walked on site and so have many other people, some have even lived on site and loads of people have attested to the care and concern that they have witnessed. Far more than anyone saying otherwise. Surely, all anyone can do is wait for actual proof before condemning someone.

Whether she did the right thing by breeding that many dogs is one thing. Accusing her of mistreatment and poor animal welfare when there is no actual evidence of this, is entirely another.

tabulahrasa · 08/08/2023 20:57

LeahFG · 08/08/2023 20:17

If the dogs were all on the Devon Dogs land and all being raised by one person I would totally agree. It isn't possible, but the dams are all living in separate homes and as far as I have seen are given the best care and attention. I haven't seen all of them, but I have seen at 4 puppies and mums who were all incredibly healthy and didn't live on site. Lauren has a paralysed dog in her home who is looked after and has her own team of people who give her therapy and care daily. There are a number people who I know and trust who have either worked with Lauren or have a puppy from her who have only experienced the best care and attention given to their dogs and their health. Surely, that has to say something, they aren't all making it up? Some of the allegations on the original post are claiming that Blink is skin and bones, but there are loads of photographs and testimonials from people who have held her to refute those claims. I have seen Blink only a few days ago on a live training session and specifically looked at her body condition and it was fabulous for a 10 year old dog. If at least one allegation is a complete lie, how do you know others aren't? There are so many eye witnesses, including vets, breeders and other professionals who will vouch for her. Do their testimonies mean nothing?

What everyone is failing to mention is that she has a large staff team who help her care for dogs on site and off site, I have spoken to and seen these people making sure that the puppies are well socialised and cared for. A large team can easily care for 15 litters in a year, particularly if the dogs are co-owned. They are not farming dogs. There are no barns filled with puppies. I have personally walked on site and so have many other people, some have even lived on site and loads of people have attested to the care and concern that they have witnessed. Far more than anyone saying otherwise. Surely, all anyone can do is wait for actual proof before condemning someone.

Whether she did the right thing by breeding that many dogs is one thing. Accusing her of mistreatment and poor animal welfare when there is no actual evidence of this, is entirely another.

I mean, if that spreadsheet is right then it’s not 15 litters last year, it’s 3 times that...

Also, her statement makes it sound very much like she was in fact doing things that weren’t ok.

🤷‍♀️

I have no skin in the game tbh, don’t know her, didn’t know she bred tbh... bought a dvd years ago off them and thought it was fine, overpriced, but fine.

It was her statement that made me go, eh, what?

But some puppy farmers breeding on a commercial scale do in fact physically look after the dogs, doesn’t make it ok.

YourCrackersMiLord · 08/08/2023 21:04

It was her statement that made me go, eh, what?

Me too. I cannot figure why she would say she bred too much IF she knew all the dogs had exemplary care?

If they had - what the hell is she sorry about?

Which is what stood out to me to mark that she, herself, has something she thinks is wrong about her breeding practices.

Then I saw those numbers and was Shock - not just the amount, but the COI which is so high in a breed where it need not be.

RunJune · 08/08/2023 21:34

@LeahFG an inbreeding coefficient of 27% is shocking.

I haven't seen all of them, but I have seen at 4 puppies and mums who were all incredibly healthy

A dog with a COI of 27% can have many problems down the line. She said herself she bred from a dog that was 8 years old (I think) because she wanted a puppy who had the same dam as her paralysed bitch. That's absolutely bat shit. I want so I get kind of attitude. Sure, she might spout the force free, positive only, kindness and fun marketing but clearly she has no fucking morals.

FatNoMoreSue · 08/08/2023 21:40

Susan Garrett says outright that she fell out with Lauren because of Lauren’s treatment of her own dogs.

is Susan lying?

OP posts:
EdithStourton · 08/08/2023 21:42

Those COIs are shocking. We KNOW high COI is connected to health issues.

Soggycushion · 08/08/2023 23:51

LeahFG · 08/08/2023 20:17

If the dogs were all on the Devon Dogs land and all being raised by one person I would totally agree. It isn't possible, but the dams are all living in separate homes and as far as I have seen are given the best care and attention. I haven't seen all of them, but I have seen at 4 puppies and mums who were all incredibly healthy and didn't live on site. Lauren has a paralysed dog in her home who is looked after and has her own team of people who give her therapy and care daily. There are a number people who I know and trust who have either worked with Lauren or have a puppy from her who have only experienced the best care and attention given to their dogs and their health. Surely, that has to say something, they aren't all making it up? Some of the allegations on the original post are claiming that Blink is skin and bones, but there are loads of photographs and testimonials from people who have held her to refute those claims. I have seen Blink only a few days ago on a live training session and specifically looked at her body condition and it was fabulous for a 10 year old dog. If at least one allegation is a complete lie, how do you know others aren't? There are so many eye witnesses, including vets, breeders and other professionals who will vouch for her. Do their testimonies mean nothing?

What everyone is failing to mention is that she has a large staff team who help her care for dogs on site and off site, I have spoken to and seen these people making sure that the puppies are well socialised and cared for. A large team can easily care for 15 litters in a year, particularly if the dogs are co-owned. They are not farming dogs. There are no barns filled with puppies. I have personally walked on site and so have many other people, some have even lived on site and loads of people have attested to the care and concern that they have witnessed. Far more than anyone saying otherwise. Surely, all anyone can do is wait for actual proof before condemning someone.

Whether she did the right thing by breeding that many dogs is one thing. Accusing her of mistreatment and poor animal welfare when there is no actual evidence of this, is entirely another.

I agree. As a previous poster said, there are some crackers people in the dog world and something smells off with this.

TerrierOrTerror · 09/08/2023 10:46

There is zero need for a COI that high particularly in the breeds in question. If much rarer breeds can be bred with much lower COI then these certainly can. These COI scream of only using their own dogs and not brining in outside studs - and that begs the question about why and what they are trying to hide.

I am not a fan of AD anyway, and neither are any of the (positive, force free) trainers I have worked directly with. Now I am even less of a fan.

I also won't buy from their associated companies again - I do love our tug e nuff products but will look for an alternative should they need replacing in future.

Maddoghouse · 09/08/2023 13:50

Having trained with them in the past and spent a lot of money on them, and having personal links to some elements myself, whether anything criminally has occurred isn't the point. I think it's possible some rules have been broken but it's also exposed me to the loopholes in the system that allow puppy farmers to continue practicing. I have no doubt that the things that point to bad practice can be covered by, for example, co-ownership of a bitch. Therefore, what you see is everyone becomes implicated in some manner even if they didn't realise what they were implicating themselves into.

People's stories of working there are not just rumours/stories. They are experiences that possibly may not break any laws depending on the contract type and all sorts of things.

As always, it comes down to what do you want your money to support. What type of business do you want to support?

I have spent about 40 hours so far researching this topic. I have been on a journey of ethics and morals. Not just relating to animal welfare but to social media. Just like how the justice system can wrongfully convict people, or guilty people are never brought to justice… trial by social media sometimes implicates the guilty as well as the innocent.

The one thing that links all of this together is: being complicit. People do not call out others because in some way their action may be considered linked to the organised crime. This is the power of social media. When people share, everyone is becoming complicit but for a good cause. Suspicions can be reported to authorities. You do not need to be an expert on anything to report a suspicion. It is not a crime to report a suspicion to the correct place and via the correct route. 1 suspicion alone may not be enough but everyone’s suspicions builds a picture.
Who is to say 1 individual alleged to be involved in this crime was not coerced themselves? Are they the coerced or the coercer?

I’m not vegan, I’m probably not as eco friendly as I should be. It’s when something touches you at the core it makes you re-evaluate everything. I thought I had ethics and morals related to animal welfare already but there is SO much more I could do.

Individually we’re all culpable for supporting practices that damage the world and damage animal welfare. The root cause is usually human selfishness. I am selfish. We all are. I will be doing more to minimise that now. I would much rather be poor but know that who I am in my mind and what I stand for serves the greater good. I never really understood why people put themselves in the firing line when they could face repercussions, but now I absolutely do. We all do things due to self preservation, intentional or not. We are all trying to support our families and our own lives but I will always ensure that people who have experienced immoral practice, criminal or not are supported too.

At the heart of dog training and breeding, should be kindness. You are raising an animal that is going into someone’s home and will change the path of that individual. When you’re training someone’s dog, you are going to change the path of that individual. The line between business and breeding is a tricky one to tread. The parallels with highly regulated industries is yes profit is made, the policies and systems in place are not always foolproof but they hold values at their core which ensure profit benefits wider issues as much as it benefits the individuals working for it.

The parallel to this story would be like being in the pharmaceutical industry while the same business sells known carcinogens. It doesn't happen in highly regulated industry. Dog breeding, training etc is not highly regulated. Every organisation involved just shifts culpability and blame to the next individual because not every organization can have every fact. Honestly, it's a minefield.

I suggest everyone just thinks a little about their values, what is important to them and then supports practices that support those values. Mind you, it's not even that simple because rescue centres fund puppy farms too in a very roundabout what. But what else are they supposed to do? Someone needs to care. But the root cause lies in the decision each human being makes when they choose to either breed from, or buy a puppy. And yes, I have bought puppies from questionable places in the past but now I know better, I do better.

janie36 · 09/08/2023 16:34

RunJune · 08/08/2023 14:35

So not only is she a terrible businesswoman/dog trainer, she is also a puppy farmer.

Their training programmes are pants. A 'trainer' I went to with my dog held the accolade 'pro dog trainer' and I found out that she trained with absolute dogs. After looking into it, all she did was buy one of their online courses. How does anybody have the brass neck to call themselves a dog trainer after doing an online course? 🤦🏼‍♀️ The dog training industry isn't regulated, anybody can call themselves a trainer, that's why there are so many terrible ones out there.

Many dog training courses are done online. I saw one the other day that accredits it's self (as they all do as like you say there are no laws on it), it was 2 days. The absolute dogs courses are 10 weeks each module and are extremely extensive on training and dog behaviour. They also have an extensive exam that is hard to pass and a video assessment where they watch a lesson you do. Many of them also train in person with them after they do their online courses to further their knowledge. It is very easy to comment on a field you know nothing about, but I promise you, you would be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable starter dog trainer than AD trained trainer. What they do with that knowledge and how they carry on career development is up to the individual. Dog trainers aren't usually trained in behaviour, they have the advantage of being trained by a vet behaviourist and a good one at that.

janie36 · 09/08/2023 16:49

Insanedoglady · 08/08/2023 07:10

Puppy Farming is Organised Crime. Nearly all puppy farmers on this scale will have their own vet hence Tom. This is what gets them out of trouble when sick puppies are returned due to the terrible environment and living conditions, bad breeding etc but ultimately a vet is what's needed to get them their 5 star License from the council the green light to carry on breeding legally. It is extremely hard for anyone to prosecute a puppy farmer when they have their own vet consistently working for their business. This wasn't a mistake or Lauren getting carried away with breeding this was organised crime at a very high level. The council who issued her 5 star breeding licence need investigating at the very least. How many breeding dogs are they licensed for? With 700 plus registration per year that's the KC reg puppies this doesn't include puppies that they haven't filled out the paperwork for and sold non KC reg, I'm not aware that councils give out licences for more than 26 breeding dogs to any one single establishment. If they have lied about numbers they should be prosecuted. They have certainly lied to the public just watched one of their videos on teaching dogs how to be ok left alone where L states we never leave our dogs for longer than 2 hours!! Absolute bar faced lie right there! What will happen to her hundreds of breeding dogs now shes been caught out?

That was 721 puppies spread over 17 years! Not 700 per year 🙄Talk about chinese whispers. So thats not hundreds of breeding bitches, that's like 4. Which is about right. She has her collies and her spaniels that she competes and most people that compete bred their dogs as people want the winning lines. I don't think any breeding is ethical, but it is far fetched to call someone a puppy farmer based on those numbers. Many breeders have come forward that breed for competitions saying that those aren't high numbers. Breeding is a business at the end of the day, so if you are going to crucify this lady, then you'd better get your pitch forks out for all the other breeders and become vegan whilst your at it. Do you really think that someone is inviting clients to their farm for lessons every day and running clinics and a full batch of staff, yet hiding a puppy farm 😂The idea is hilarious. It is very possible that the girl that worked there for just a month was inexperienced and didn't have anything to judge the puppy pens on and didn't realise how bloody stinky and gross puppies are after peeing and pooping in their pens all night and playing in it. I didn't realise how gross a rescue kennels stank until I visited one for the first time the other day. Of course it was stupid of me to think they'd be clean. They aren't being cleaned out 24 hours a day. The so called evidence is weak at best and it is purely hearsay at this point. There are always people trying to take down successful women and for this reason alone we should be supporting each other. Innocent until proven guilty.

RunJune · 09/08/2023 16:52

@janie36 hello you seem very knowledgable, I don't have time to reply to your comment on the training aspect but can you shed some light on the reasons for breeding with a COI of 27%? Thanks!

pupstart1 · 09/08/2023 17:11

Janie the numbers have been updated to over 1000 puppies now and seem to be going up as evidence of unregistered litters come in.
The litters are NOT spread over 17 years as she wants people to believe she bred a few litters a year before 2017 but the majority of these puppies have been born in the last 6-7 years.
There is also evidence of back to back breeding, breeding from unsuitable dogs, as well as much more.
There are countless testimonies from owners, staff and fellow competitors of how bad both her breeding strategies and her treatment of staff has been yet people are still defending her?

janie36 · 09/08/2023 17:18

It’s not an easy thing to explain. Many breeders ‘line-breed’ to keep their wining lines going. It may not be great but it’s not illegal. If you get a dog not from a breeder that’s testing it could be way higher, you’d just never know. This is a good article that explains some of the issue better than I can. https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/gundog-breeds/breeds-of-spaniel-119505

Breeds of spaniel - the growing number of genetic faults

Selective breeding is leading to a growing number of genetic faults in cockers and springers. David Tomlinson looks at breeds of spaniel

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/gundog-breeds/breeds-of-spaniel-119505

pupstart1 · 09/08/2023 17:46

Take 2021 so far they have discovered 30 registered litters.
Thats a minimum of 15 bitches if all were bred back to back which is very unlikely so probably over 22 bitches, who owns that amount of breeding bitches?
As puppies stay for 8 weeks this means she would have continually has 4-5 litters on the ground at any one time.
This is way more than carrying on her line, this is mass breeding for money.

EdithStourton · 09/08/2023 18:05

Breeding to maintain your line... Somebody I know moderately well is very successful in gundog field trials. She has maintained her line now for about forty years. Currently she has five bitches which I think is the most she's ever had, oldest is 12. She's bred absolute max 20 litters. Doesn't ever have double figure COIs, either.

So yeah, those COIs are 😮😮😮