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Bully breeds

312 replies

Jenzine · 08/07/2023 21:36

There are many understandable concerns regarding these types of dog, and as a dog owner myself, I have taken to avoiding places that I’ve encountered them, as a precaution, because dog aggression is common in them as a breed instinct, just as ratting is to terriers and herding to collies.
Areas I can walk my dogs (I always walk them individually, I don’t trust other people’s training of their dogs, and want to be sure that I can manage any situations that arise, which is always infinitely harder when walking multiple dogs) are vanishing at a fast pace with the baffling popularity of these mutants.
Defenders of these dogs always claim it’s the owner not the breed, however there are bad owners of every breed and most breeds still aren’t killing people fairly regularly. There also seems to be no consideration among the defenders and deniers that even if the dog is genuinely nice and loving, that it could become unwell (brain tumours, neurodegenerative conditions, general sickness) which can make even the friendliest Labrador have a sudden change in behaviour.
If any of my dogs, god forbid, ever get poorly in a way that makes them react aggressively, I know that I’m physically capable of preventing serious injury to myself and others by restraining the dog; I don’t believe the same could ever be said of an American bully XL or their owners.
All this to say, what is the justification for an otherwise reasonable person (not the drug dealers and chavs buying status dogs) with or without children to get one of these dogs? Just “liking them” surely is not an acceptable answer when weighed against the lives of human beings? What can they offer as a companion animal that you cannot get from any other breed of dog that you are actually physically capable of controlling?
How are these enormously heavy and powerful dogs not automatically in violation of the dangerous dogs act just by existing as a creature capable of exerting about 240kg of force at the higher weights of 60kg (dogs being capable of exerting force at 4x their own weight)? I don’t believe any human is capable of controlling these animals physically, and verbal control of dogs is never 100% and as someone with a lurcher, I know that no matter how well my dog recalls in general situations, the moment her prey drive is activated, she will not even hear the command to be able to follow it, which is why she’s only off lead in enclosed fields.

I don’t believe in any of the myths about these dogs perpetuated by either side (E.g the locking jaw myth of the anti-bull breed brigadiers, or the nanny dog myth of the staffy/APBT nutters) dogs are dogs, they can be good/bad, well treated/abused, but I don’t believe that owning dogs is a right, I believe it’s a privilege that is too often abused, even by well-meaning people.
How many times do we have to mourn children and adults before “[dog’s name] has never done this before!” Is no longer something we hear all too often from people with dogs that can’t be restrained by anything less than a cruise ship anchor, after their “loving family pet” has mauled a grown man to death in a park, or dismembered a toddler in their own home?
People often compare this argument to the argument against guns in America, however, a gun is not an autonomous animal capable of physically overpowering its owner and firing itself at will; dogs are.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
gettingolderbutcooler · 29/07/2023 14:03

The fact that the fucking idiots (thankfully now jailed) who owned the XL that killed Jack called it 'Beast' shows that they knew what they had.

AlwaysTheSupplierNeverTheBride · 29/07/2023 16:54

There was a case near me 2 or 3 weeks ago where the owners of an XL Bully left the front door open and the dog got out. First opportunity it got, it attacked and seriously injured a cockapoo (reports say it literally tore a chunk of flesh off) who was being walked on lead next to a buggy. It took 5 grown men to subdue it and was seized by armed police.

The dog's owners were in the local police's comments section saying their dog wasn't aggressive at all and was great with their kids Hmm

The dog's name? Venom.

sanityisamyth · 29/07/2023 18:56

www.facebook.com/9NewsQueensland/videos/719536773215655/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

It is in their genetics to behave like this. Instinctively it was getting hold of the horse's leg to bring it down. It was only the skill of the rider keeping the horse's head up that kept it alive.

Sorry for the DM link but it's well worth a read on this event ...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11895649/amp/Officers-American-Bully-dog-savaged-police-horse-owner-insists-acted-self-defence.html

ThisOldThang · 29/07/2023 23:21

Why would anybody want a blood sports dog to be in their family home?

If you have the stomach to watch this video, notice the repeated attacks and the brutal lunge at the poor man's face as he tries to get up. Also notice how the pitbull wags its tail all the way through the attack. It is doing exactly what it was bred to do. That is a good pitbull and is working exactly as designed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/15cdi1v/warning_graphic_man_with_cancer_is_attacked_by/

I read a historical account of bull baiting and it's just horrific. A bulldog owner cut off all four of his dogs feet, an intervals, and the dog continued to attack the bull on its bloody stumps. They just do not stop attacking. That scumbag then killed the dog and sold its puppies to the cheering crowd for huge sums of money. The bloodline of pitbulls is hundreds of years of selective breeding to produce the ultimate canine killing machine - and it shows.

elifont · 15/08/2023 04:11

Bulldogs can be so strong , more so than other dogs if they want to be, but a dog brought up right is so loving and protective. I have an American bulldog who I love; but a dog like him brought up differently I wouldn't trust at all. They're scary. But a good dog is the best family member you will ever have x

CellophaneFlower · 15/08/2023 05:43

I read an article yesterday from the RSPCA stating that the 4 (I tnink) banned breeds should be removed from the list as these dogs hadn't been responsible for any of the attacks in subsequent years. Surely this is as they're banned so hopefully isn't as many around as there would be if they weren't? Also, they are against banning the XL, despite the stats. I have never been keen on the RSPCA but they've now lost any respect I had for them.

They stated that it should be about the individual dog, rather than the breed. This is all very well, but it's too late by then. We need to limit the chances of the attacks happening in the first place. Nobody needs to own an animal that has been bred for it's killer instinct and they have no hope of overpowering.

I mean, I'm sure some lions could be trained to be fantastic, soppy family pets (and they are actually handsome) but this doesn't mean it's a good idea to walk them in public on a lead.

tabulahrasa · 15/08/2023 08:52

Except that’s a pocket bully.

They’re patterdale crosses, and in this country crossed with mixed breeds, so any breed specific law wouldn’t cover them and they’re under 12kg so size ones wouldn’t either.

Which is why breed based legislations are pointless.

Jenzine · 15/08/2023 11:54

tabulahrasa · 15/08/2023 08:52

Except that’s a pocket bully.

They’re patterdale crosses, and in this country crossed with mixed breeds, so any breed specific law wouldn’t cover them and they’re under 12kg so size ones wouldn’t either.

Which is why breed based legislations are pointless.

“Perfect is the enemy of the good.” - Voltaire

We can’t stop every single fatal dog attack so we should do nothing about an obvious trend in the problem and potentially prevent 7 out of 10 excess deaths per year, as is the current yearly average for XL Bully related deaths.

OP posts:
tabulahrasa · 15/08/2023 12:25

Jenzine · 15/08/2023 11:54

“Perfect is the enemy of the good.” - Voltaire

We can’t stop every single fatal dog attack so we should do nothing about an obvious trend in the problem and potentially prevent 7 out of 10 excess deaths per year, as is the current yearly average for XL Bully related deaths.

Breed specific legislation is doing nothing though, except it’s doing nothing while spending time and resources to look like you’re doing something.

It’s a huge pointless exercise designed to keep tabloid readers happy without actually doing anything about the breeding and ownership culture that creates dangerous dogs.

It’s like tackling drunk drivers by banning tequila.

Jenzine · 15/08/2023 12:41

Is it doing nothing? Or can you just not see the effects because it’s a preventative? Over 60% of dog related deaths, of which there are hundreds, in America are from pit bulls (misidentified/lab mixes/whatever you want to say, if someone is looking at a dog and thinking “pit bull” it’s likely a pit bull of some type) what percentage of the (up until recently) 3 dog attack deaths a year in the UK are pit bulls?
3 deaths per year by assorted breeds in various situations compared to the 7 deaths per year for the last 3 years from XL Bullys in homogenous situations. It’s not the same, one is isolated incidents expected when keeping large dogs with guarding/protection instincts or having terriers around infants (with the attack until it stops squealing instinct) the other is a clear pattern where unstable dogs of a particular breed are being handed off to people they don’t know via the internet into unsuitable living environments.
Make no mistake though, this also happens with most other breeds of dog, private rehoming where owners feel they’re doing the dog a better service avoiding a shelter environment by advertising the dog themselves, but they don’t do home checks, don’t facilitate multiple meetings to ensure the dog is suited to the family and vice versa, and very rarely, if ever, are there dogs of breeds other than XL Bullys showing up on the news having mauled a family member in the home.
Private rehoming should be regulated, if allowed at all, but you can’t pretend breed has nothing to do with it just because the circumstances are usually similar. There are dogs of other breeds in the same circumstances that are not mauling people to death.

OP posts:
Astrabees · 15/08/2023 16:06

The rescue place we got our last three dogs from now has quite a few XL bullys for rehoming. I feel very sorry for them, all assessed as well behaved and friendly but who would take them on? I couldn’t walk one without being concerned it could pull me over if it saw a squirrel. Rehoming will also be hampered by the fact 2 of them have cut ears. Poor things should never have been bred.

TwistofFate · 16/08/2023 19:36

This has been such an interesting thread. I generally agree that different breeds have been bred to enhance certain traits or looks, but I think banning breeds is a blunt tool.

I've known dogs from breeds mentioned in this thread (GSD, wiemaraner, dalmatians and a deer hound) and none of them were intimidating because they were all very well trained, so I can believe that a well-trained bully from a good home is a safe pet, but I think far too many of them have been bred and bought by people who like the look of them or because they're trendy who have no idea how to train a dog with basic commands like (recall, stay, sit or to walk to heel), never mind anything more advanced.

My neighbour has just bought a bully puppy and it seems like a playful and friendly puppy but they leave it outside on its own for hours, they aren't socialising it with other dogs, and I cringe when I see the children rough-playing with it (making it "dance" backwards or slapping it).

I think the problem always comes down to enforcement, it's easier to remove a banned breed or dangerous dog than check every single dog at the park is chipped and the owner has a licence. I really think cracking down on puppy farms, backyard/unlicensed breeders and selling/giving away dogs on gumtree or social media would prevent some of these dogs ending up with totally unsuitable owners.

ThisOldThang · 16/08/2023 22:11

I think that training is a dangerous misconception with bull pit type dogs. They are high gameness bloodsports dogs and that can't be trained out of them.

There are just too many examples of non-abused, much loved family pets snapping and mauling people to death.

Please watch the video I posted earlier today.

This documentary is also worth watching. A baby is snatched from the arms of a babysitter and mauled to death. The dog had been raised from a puppy by the babysitter.

Pit Bulls Unleashed: Should They Be Banned? - The Fifth Estate

It’s a fact that pit bulls, with their powerful jaws, can kill and maim. Google ‘pit bull attacks’ if you dare. But are pit bulls born bad or do humans make ...

https://youtu.be/iFa8HOdegZA

Wolfiefan · 16/08/2023 23:25

How do you know these dogs have been bred and raised responsibly? How do you know owners haven’t taken stupid risks (eg with kids)

TwistofFate · 17/08/2023 00:29

Just in case it wasn't clear from my previous message, I wouldn't get any bully breed as I think the risks of it turning on me, my kids or someone else are too great.

Banning a breed might be a blunt response but I can't see how the police or dog wardens could realistically enforce anything else that would remove the risk. I still think long term there needs to be a crackdown on unregistered breeders and selling dogs informally though.

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 02:39

ThisOldThang · 16/08/2023 22:11

I think that training is a dangerous misconception with bull pit type dogs. They are high gameness bloodsports dogs and that can't be trained out of them.

There are just too many examples of non-abused, much loved family pets snapping and mauling people to death.

Please watch the video I posted earlier today.

This documentary is also worth watching. A baby is snatched from the arms of a babysitter and mauled to death. The dog had been raised from a puppy by the babysitter.

You don’t train any dog’s natural instincts out of them... that’s not what dog training is.

One of mine is a collie, I haven’t trained him out of herding. .. yet he’s not out there on walks trying to herd children or traffic.

And gameness is a really vague word, what are you actually meaning by that? Because the traditional usage would mean prey drive and that isn’t what’s usually happening with fatal attacks... and when it is, it’s not these breeds - not in this country.

You can’t really make valid comparisons with America because the prevalence of pitbulls there is so high.

elifont · 17/08/2023 03:33

I have a large bulldog who I love to bits. But I realise his size that everyone is terrified of him, as I would be if I saw him. I also wouldn't adopt one of his siblings, because dog even half his size is strong and scary as fuxk

CellophaneFlower · 17/08/2023 05:08

You can’t really make valid comparisons with America because the prevalence of pitbulls there is so high.

You can if you look at it percentage wise. Only 6% of dogs owned in America are pitbulls/pitbull mixes. If OP is right and over 60% of fatal attacks are by these dogs then there's clearly an issue with them. The only reason we don't have a similar percentage in this country is as they're banned, therefore I cannot see how banning specific breeds doesn't work.

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 05:41

CellophaneFlower · 17/08/2023 05:08

You can’t really make valid comparisons with America because the prevalence of pitbulls there is so high.

You can if you look at it percentage wise. Only 6% of dogs owned in America are pitbulls/pitbull mixes. If OP is right and over 60% of fatal attacks are by these dogs then there's clearly an issue with them. The only reason we don't have a similar percentage in this country is as they're banned, therefore I cannot see how banning specific breeds doesn't work.

Estimates range between 6% to more than 20%

They’re also according to some stats, the most likely dog to be sold on online, the most likely to end up in shelters, the most likely to be involved in cases of abuse and neglect.

Different country, different laws, different dogs, different culture.

Which is all beside the point, because pitbulls and pitbull types are already banned. The dogs the OP is talking about are not pitbulls, they’re the dogs bred after the ban because that’s what happens when you ban a breed, people breed something else to get round it.

CellophaneFlower · 17/08/2023 06:21

And that is why they also should be banned. And when they try and flout the law by bringing in another similar breed, ban that as well. Otherwise, what is the answer, just keep letting deaths/life changing injuries increase because "banning specific breeds" doesn't work? Of course it does to an extent, there will be less of them.

Wolfiefan · 17/08/2023 07:19

It doesn’t work. People just breed something different. The problem here is the people. Not the dogs.

CellophaneFlower · 17/08/2023 07:51

But surely by banning them it stops them becoming mainstream and will cut down on the attacks? Unfortunately we can't eradicate the dickheads, but we can make it harder for them.

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 08:09

CellophaneFlower · 17/08/2023 07:51

But surely by banning them it stops them becoming mainstream and will cut down on the attacks? Unfortunately we can't eradicate the dickheads, but we can make it harder for them.

We could make it harder by changing the laws around breeding and owning dogs.

Instead of just working our way through dog breeds one by one.