Page 11 | Our dog bit ds in the face and drew blood

Differentusernametoday · 2022-08-22T12:19:36+00:00

please be kind, I am really shaken and need some support. We have an 11 month old springer. We have a few issues with him, mostly anxiety related, and are waiting to see a behaviourist. I don’t trust him because he has growled at us before, and has bitten my hand and snapped at me, although to be fair both times I feel we’re partly my fault. This afternoon, he was on the sofa bed put down for guests - ds2saw him and told him to get off, apparently dog growled at him, ds tried to move him and dog bit his face and has drawn blood. Currently waiting in a&e now. Ds2 is devastated and knows he should not have tried to move him when he had already growled, and blames himself. I feel like I have reached the end of the road and I can’t live with a dog I don’t trust, but it will break ds3’s heart if we rehome him, but in some ways it will be a huge weight lifted. What would you do?

Lightningrain · 23/08/2022 09:02

BlackEyeSusan · 22/08/2022 23:27

What rubbish. Most good natured dogs enjoy cuddling up with children as much as the children enjoy cuddling and playing with them. That's the whole point of a family dog.

It’s this kind of attitude that results in bites.

Very few dogs enjoy cuddles. Many tolerate it but it’s not a natural dog behaviour and can be threatening and scary, especially if it’s someone they don’t know and trust.

JenGin · 23/08/2022 09:06

It is true that, as a general rule, a dog that's not familiar with you doesn't like being cuddled. It's unnatural behaviour for dogs. That said, our current dog, and previous dogs, have actively come over to us to seek cuddles - pushes its body right into us and wants to be cuddled. It's not as black and white as "do not cuddle dogs".

Basically everything comes down to being able to read a dogs behaviour and the signs it's giving off. You don't need to be Graham Hall to do this - just a basic understanding of dogs will avoid potentially dangerous and stressful situations. It should be a mandatory skill to have if looking to own a dog, in my opinion.

Hoppinggreen · 23/08/2022 09:22

JenGin · 23/08/2022 09:06

It is true that, as a general rule, a dog that's not familiar with you doesn't like being cuddled. It's unnatural behaviour for dogs. That said, our current dog, and previous dogs, have actively come over to us to seek cuddles - pushes its body right into us and wants to be cuddled. It's not as black and white as "do not cuddle dogs".

Basically everything comes down to being able to read a dogs behaviour and the signs it's giving off. You don't need to be Graham Hall to do this - just a basic understanding of dogs will avoid potentially dangerous and stressful situations. It should be a mandatory skill to have if looking to own a dog, in my opinion.

He probably wants to be stroked or have some physical contact, why would you think “cuddles” when being held like that is not natural for a dog?
If our dog comes for attention he usually gets it in the form of strokes (not on the head) or chin/ear tickles. I am sure I could wrap my arms around him and cuddle him if I wanted but he would be pretty uncomfortable about it

JenGin · 23/08/2022 09:26

Because he leans right into the cuddle and buries his head into us. Believe me, he's after a cuddle. I appreciate many dogs don't like it and feel smothered but ours do. I'd never try and cuddle a dog I'm not familiar with, though. People just know their own dogs and what they do or not like...or at least they should as dog owners.

Emotionalsupportviper · 23/08/2022 09:30

Frequency · 22/08/2022 19:25

That first bite crosses a psychological barrier.

Dogs' brains are not wired that way. They don't have the capacity for reason or logic. They are literally input-output machines.

Action = consequence.

If the consequence is a reward they repeat the action. If they don't like the consequence they do not repeat the action.

They're also hardwired to avoid conflict wherever possible. Conflict has the possible consequences of injury which may mean death.

They always give off many, many warnings before they resort to snapping or biting but we miss them because the vast majority of dog owners are not educated enough to spot them. If the snap works the dog has learned the consequence of a snap is a reward (the thing they don't like goes away) therefore they have no reason to escalate the behaviour.

They still run through all their warning signs prior to snapping again because they are literally repeating the thing that worked from the start (lip lick, look away, whale eye, stiffening of posture etc) You can still prevent further snapping by learning to read these signs.

Building confidence can include building general trust and confidence rather than building confidence with a specific thing. Clicker training is good for this. It helps build trust and communication between the dog and handler. Absolute Dogs also have a lot of games that help build general confidence in nervous or anxious dogs.

I certainly agree with you regarding missed warnings.

But I also firmly believe that for many dogs - depending what is driving their "aggression" (in inverted commas, because it may be defensiveness rather than aggression), there is a barrier which once crossed makes further unacceptable behaviour more likely.

Haven't heard of Absolute Dogs but will check them out.

Emotionalsupportviper · 23/08/2022 09:31

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mountainsunsets · 23/08/2022 09:43

BlackEyeSusan · 22/08/2022 23:27

What rubbish. Most good natured dogs enjoy cuddling up with children as much as the children enjoy cuddling and playing with them. That's the whole point of a family dog.

The whole point of a family dog is not to just tolerate whatever behaviour gets thrown at it 🙄

GeorgeorRuth · 23/08/2022 09:56

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Derbee · 23/08/2022 09:59

BlackEyeSusan · 22/08/2022 22:52

Most families who have a family dog don't invest hours of specialist training to make sure the dog doesn't bite the children. Most good natured dogs and reasonably behaved children cohabit very happily with great benefit for family life. I spent half my childhood curled up in various dogs beds with a book, I remember once visiting a friend whose pointer had a litter of puppies, I spent the entire day in the whelping box with the bitch and puppies. Many bitches are, not surprisingly, protective of their puppies, but fortunately this was a tolerant one and no one raised an eyebrow.
I've had dogs all my life and never been bitten before.
The reason I wasn't prepared to consult a dog behaviourist is because there's no way of knowing if the work being done is successful until the day the dog bites again when you will know it didn't work.
@User1113 There may be different training styles, but I absolutely believe you should be able to remove the dogs dinner if you happen to want to. Or anything else the dog happens to be chewing/eating.
Do we think the Cambridge's spent many hours training Lupo to politely share ice creams with the children and not take a hand at the same time? I think he was probably a naturally gentle dog, who adjusted to the arrival of children quite happily, I'm sure the children will have played with him in the same way most other children play with their dogs.

OP don't take any notice of some of the posters here who are berating you. Probably, like my friend has said, it's all in the breeding, or some dogs being less suited to family life.
So glad the breeder will take your dog back. I'm sure he will have a good life in a home without children.
I just heard from the gamekeeper who now has our dog how much he is loving life out with the other dogs all day long and responding really well to training. He seemed quite surprised what a good recall the dog has, coming back from the pheasants as soon as he is called back, so I know we instigated good training with him, but he wasn't suited to family life. It is what it is and I don't think these things can necessarily be predicted or prevented.

Unfortunately anybody can post any bollocks on this forum. Hopefully people looking for advice or information ignore almost everything posted by @BlackEyeSusan

Arguing that you’ve been disrespecting dog’s boundaries and comfort since childhood isn’t really anything to show off or feel smug about. You’re lucky you’ve never been bitten, but you’ve never obviously been fortunate enough to only closely interact with dogs who don’t lash out as a reaction to discomfort. You said yourself fortunately this was a tolerant one about the poor bitch having you spend all day grabbing at her pups.

Announcing that dogs enjoy cuddles as much as children enjoy cuddling them is not only clearly nonsense, but is also dangerous advice for people to take away from your posts.

And the point of a family dog is not for it to be an entertaining moving toy for the children, that has to tolerate whatever they feel like inflicting on the dog. They can learn responsibility, respect, boundaries, empathy etc etc from pets. Not merely “here’s a fluffy thing. Grab it or sit on it if you want to. Pull any dangly bits on it that take your fancy. And definitely hug and kiss it whenever you want, regardless of whether it’s asleep/eating etc”

Just shaking my head more and more with every post of yours…

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 23/08/2022 11:07

*GeorgeorRuth
How the hell is there 3 copies of my post????

I thought you had a stammer*

@Emotionalsupportviper this isn't funny. I don't like reporting posts to MNHQ or censorship because free speech etc, but seeing "jokes" like this can be upsetting to parents of DC with speech impediments, so I'd rather mention it to you directly so you can bear it in mind. God knows DC get bullied and have the piss taken out of them by other DC for stammering, not nice to see adults making light of what can be a disability.

Sorry for off topic post, but this thread will probably descend into Fight Club anyway as it's dog related

Derbee · 23/08/2022 14:36

I wondered how long that would take

Original poster

Differentusernametoday · 23/08/2022 18:26

update - dog is going on Thursday. The breeder has found a gamekeeper who is looking for another dog, he has a few spaniels already and is aware of the history. He will keep him in the home first to settle him, no kids. Breeder will meet me there for handover. Feeling really shit and like a complete failure, as a dog owner and as a mum. But I know we tried. We failed, but we tried. Ds2 is ok, which is the main thing.

OP posts:

Duettino · 23/08/2022 18:27

That's great news. At the end of the day, in reality, this is a good outcome. DS is ok and the dog will have a happy home.

Never a failure, always a lesson and that!

Hoppinggreen · 23/08/2022 18:34

Differentusernametoday · 23/08/2022 18:26

update - dog is going on Thursday. The breeder has found a gamekeeper who is looking for another dog, he has a few spaniels already and is aware of the history. He will keep him in the home first to settle him, no kids. Breeder will meet me there for handover. Feeling really shit and like a complete failure, as a dog owner and as a mum. But I know we tried. We failed, but we tried. Ds2 is ok, which is the main thing.

You are being very brave and don’t the right thing rather than the easy thing.
Ddog will have a great life and your DC will be safe.
Its Sad but worked out ok in the end

mountainsunsets · 23/08/2022 18:37

Differentusernametoday · 23/08/2022 18:26

update - dog is going on Thursday. The breeder has found a gamekeeper who is looking for another dog, he has a few spaniels already and is aware of the history. He will keep him in the home first to settle him, no kids. Breeder will meet me there for handover. Feeling really shit and like a complete failure, as a dog owner and as a mum. But I know we tried. We failed, but we tried. Ds2 is ok, which is the main thing.

You didn't fail.

Not all dogs are suited to living with children and working dogs often need specialist homes and experienced owners.

You're doing 100% the right thing - by your dog, your DS and your family. Big hugs to you

Mummyoflittledragon · 23/08/2022 18:37

I think that’s a brilliant outcome. Friends rehomed their resource hoarding dog to a much calmer home through a breed specific rescue to very experienced owners. I expect the game keeper is very pleased to have a ‘free’ dog and your dog will have a great life.

Bignanny30 · 23/08/2022 18:41

I’m not understanding the problem here?!?!?! What is more important to you - your children or an animal 💁💁

Hoppinggreen · 23/08/2022 19:25

Bignanny30 · 23/08/2022 18:41

I’m not understanding the problem here?!?!?! What is more important to you - your children or an animal 💁💁

If you read the thread properly you might

mountainsunsets · 23/08/2022 19:26

Bignanny30 · 23/08/2022 18:41

I’m not understanding the problem here?!?!?! What is more important to you - your children or an animal 💁💁

You could at least bother to read the thread before jumping in with your nasty comments 💁💁

oakleaffy · 23/08/2022 19:26

@Differentusernametoday
Glad dog is going to a working home.
Am surprised the breeder allowed a “Worker “ to go and live with a non worker family..
That was remiss of her.

An Aussie farmer occasionally breeds a working litter, and she only ever allows them to go to experienced working homes-

Where they will work sheep and protect stock ( All live indoors)

Suzi888 · 23/08/2022 19:28

I think that’s an amazing outcome OP- for both dog and child. Both very lucky 💐 don’t beat yourself up. It could have ended very differently.

EdithStourton · 23/08/2022 19:45

Glad dog is going to a working home.
Am surprised the breeder allowed a “Worker “ to go and live with a non worker family..
That was remiss of her.
Plenty of working-line dogs live happy lives as pets. I know a lot of working-strain cockers and springers in pet homes, and have kept a working-line gundog as a pet myself. But they are driven and highly motivated dogs and they need clear boundaries and their brains kept busy.

OP, I know several gamekeepers and their dogs have wonderful lives. I know one who gently rehabbed a very unhappy German pointer and got her into work. Your dog will be fine.

I hope your DS heals quickly and well.

BlackEyeSusan · 23/08/2022 19:48

Unfortunately anybody can post any bollocks on this forum.

Yes, an awful lot of amateur dog psychologists who spout extraordinary advice. "I always rewarded growling in my reactive dog" being a case in point.

Precisely why, after consulting with my vet and professional gun dog handlers I was happy with my decision that the dog was better suited to a working home, which is proving to be the right decision.

Family dogs are just that. Over the years myself and my wider family have had many dogs of various breeds, spaniels, labradors, lots of terriers, boxers, rescue greyhounds. Various children have played with them, cuddled up on the sofa with them, dressed them up and put them in the dolls cot, shared the back seat of the car with them. Not a single child or family member has ever been bitten before. And guess what. Not a single dog has had hours of psychotherapy invested in training it not to bite. Most family dogs are treated as members of the family and it is a positive and happy relationship for both the dog and the family. Most good family dogs don't guard the sofa, growl and bite unexpectedly. Most families don't spend hours of training to make sure the dog doesn't bite.
There are breeds I would never have but whatever the breed clearly some dogs are not reliable for whatever reason, different factors with different individual dogs.

OP that's a great outcome, the dog will love its new life. Don't beat yourself up and ignore some of the nastier posts. Your children will soon get over it all and you definitely haven't failed as a Mum or a dog owner.

GG1986 · 23/08/2022 19:49

Sadly you need to get rid of the dog.

BeautifulDragon · 23/08/2022 19:50

I think that's a great outcome OP! Your dog will have a great life.

Things don't always work out, but we live and we learn.