Our dog bit ds in the face and drew blood

[Differentusernametoday]

please be kind, I am really shaken and need some support.

We have an 11 month old springer. We have a few issues with him, mostly anxiety related, and are waiting to see a behaviourist. I don’t trust him because he has growled at us before, and has bitten my hand and snapped at me, although to be fair both times I feel we’re partly my fault. This afternoon, he was on the sofa bed put down for guests - ds2saw him and told him to get off, apparently dog growled at him, ds tried to move him and dog bit his face and has drawn blood. Currently waiting in a&e now. Ds2 is devastated and knows he should not have tried to move him when he had already growled, and blames himself. I feel like I have reached the end of the road and I can’t live with a dog I don’t trust, but it will break ds3’s heart if we rehome him, but in some ways it will be a huge weight lifted. What would you do?

No it doesn’t. Rehoming is quite sufficient.

The dog is stressed, and not suited to a family home. May be more suited to a working situation - police dog handlers may be interested.

I have 2 x 11 month old springer puppies, my third lot. They wouldn’t dream of biting anyone. Has something happened to make him reactive? Does he resource guard (as in, you can’t take a toy from him or get him off a seat easily)? Do you know his background? Working/show/temperament of both parents?

I think, as a parent, I’d want the dog gone asap. I completely understand your ds will be heartbroken, it would kill me if I had to re-home any of mine, but if you can’t trust the dog around children, then it’s just not feasible. I can put you in touch with Spaniel Aid if you like. I’m sorry this is happening, it’s the last thing you expect when you have a puppy.

@BlackEyeSusan i’m so sorry that happened to you.
Dog was from a Kennel Club Assured Breeder. She can have him back, but not for another week because one of her bitches (his mum in fact) is in season. She is contacting the owners of his dad to see if they can help, and a couple of rescues as well.
In the meantime he is confined to the kitchen.
Yes, I do blame myself. I have been very naive. Ds2 knew he should have backed off after dog growled, but I don’t think any of us realised that dog was capable of this. He bit me once (not hard) when I was trying to put his (new, hated) canny collar on, and snapped at me the other day when I had taken hold of his collar to put him in his crate when guests were here and he was getting overexcited. Both times were when I was distracted and didn’t handle him properly, and were completely avoidable. With hindsight though, it’s obvious now that something like this would happen.
Lesson learned, and no, I won’t ever be getting another dog. After the last 9 months, I am genuinely in awe of people who have decent, well behaved dogs, because I know how much work we have put in, and even that wasn’t enough, so hats off to you all.

Hi @Differentusernametoday - I work with dogs :)

There's no need for this dog to be PTS imo. However, it does need to be re-homed via a reputable breed rescue (try Spaniel Aid UK) and you need to make sure you give the rescue every single detail about the dog, its' behaviour and its' temperament. It must never go to another home with children.

The truth is that lots of dogs aren't suited to living with children or in busy family homes, but that doesn't mean they're bad dogs. At the end of the day, this dog is an 11 month old puppy - it could have a great future if it goes to the right household and receives the right training and boundaries.

X-post. I'm glad the breeder can have him back.

Thank you @Brigante9

Rehome the dog or get it PTS. If you rehome it, the new owners/dog charity MUST be told the dog has a history of biting. I’d be leaning towards PTS as this doesn’t look good for the future.

Thank you @mountainsunsets

Places like Spaniel Aid often rehome young dogs to working homes. When I got my 5 month old springer from them I was an Estate Manager in the Lakes. He had free reign of 4,000 acres. A farmer friend has taken a dog and is out all day. Another has taken a young cocker spaniel from them and it’s now a very well trained gun dog. There are plenty of suitable homes for a 11 month old Springer with experienced working homes where they can thrive

That's so lovely fyn

My dog did this when he was young. We immediately got to work training him and put rules in place to prevent it from happening again.

He no longer wore his collar in the house as being pulled by his collar was a trigger.
He was not allowed on the sofa unless he was invited up.
He was taught a solid "OFF" - if he ignored the off we had a houseline/slip lead to gently lead him off the sofa but we'd taught it that well we never needed it.
The kids were not to approach him at all. He had to go to them if he wanted to interact with them (they were allowed to call him to them if they wanted to play)
I got the kids involved in calm clicker training sessions to build trust between them and the dog.
We set up a crate/safe space in the front room and dining room for him where no other person or animal was allowed to approach him or call him away.
I taught him to leave the room when I did so I knew he would never be left unsupervised even accidentally.
The kids were told no matter what the dog is doing whether he is eating something dangerous or destroying their favorite toy if he growls/doesn't respond to verbal commands they leave him alone and let an adult manage him.
We muzzle-trained him in case we ever did need to do anything he didn't like (examine his ears for example).

He was 18 months old when we first got him and he was snappy/growling/biting. He's 16 now and the only other person he's ever snapped at is an idiot obedience trainer who was warned he would bite her if she got physical with him.

As an aside, I am a qualified behaviourist. I was working through the course when we got the dog. That is why we got a dog, to help through the qualification. If you do decide to keep him he needs a vet check immediately and you need a behaviourist on the ground to help put a plan in place and work out what triggered the bite.

Cuddling and bending over a dog isn’t a weird thing to do it’s perfectly normal

as someone who’s had 4 dogs throughout my life I’ve never had an issue regardless of the dog was sleeping or eating. None of my dogs were trained to act in any way other than to sit and come.

I’m not a dog expert but personally just think some dogs have issues people aren’t always at fault

No dod that is of good temperament , who has been trained well would bite a child on the face especially- Simply for being asked to get off furniture.
Especially not enough to draw blood.
Sadly there are reams of untrained dogs about-
Dogs and children- Children need to know how to train dogs, so dog respects them.
A dog should move when requested, even if asked by a child.
” Fido, Off”
Fido gets off.
”Good Boy!”
This is very basic, fundamental training.

When I was a child our Springer Spaniel always snarled and growled at me. My parents didn't see the harm. All I had to do was walk in the room.

Until one day he went for me and narrowly missed my nose and ear.

It was horrendous! He ripped out my hair.

Sorry OP you know the answer :(

Cuddling and bending over a dog isn’t a weird thing to do it’s perfectly normal

It's actually threatening behavior in their language. As is face-to-face contact. Most dogs would tolerate it but you should never, ever hug any dog, especially not an anxious one.

Also fancy buying a working dog from a game keeper. Clue there!! Working dog not friendly family pet. His breed are use to bring out on the moors, chasing hares, etc etc.

This will get worse as more lockdown dogs are failed.

@Differentusernametoday giving him back to the breeder is the ideal solution and I’m glad she does this, as she should. I would push for a speedy return. Please don’t say you’ll never have another: as per my pm, one of mine was very tricky we managed him-no kids here and he wouldn’t have dreamed of biting us, just other people/dogs. I’m actually devastated for you, looking at my two, it would destroy me to have to re-home. In the future, maybe consider a temperament tested adult dog so you know it’s safe.

The vast majority of dogs aren’t truly aggressive. Resource guarding is fairly common and stems from worry that something is going to be taken away (fear).
A dog that bites has usually gradually progressed its body language indicating it is uncomfortable and we often miss the more subtle cues. As a result the dog feels the need to escalate its behaviour until it gets the result it wants (the threat backs off or the worrying thing goes away).
Something as simple as turning the head away or licking lips isn’t generally known about by most dog owners and I cringe when I see videos of children hugging dogs while the dog tries to look away.
I read an academic article a few months ago that stated up to 80% of dogs with fear related reactivity are experiencing some kind of pain so it’a always worth getting a full pain exam where a dog’s behaviour has changed.

A dog that resource guards (especially a young dog) can absolutely be turned around but it’s probably not the right environment to do so in your house unless you can keep the dog separate from the children whilst you address it, and get help from a good behaviourist. I would contact a spaniel rescue charity for some advice.

There are too many people jumping to say PTS, when to a dog this is no different than you shouting ‘oi, get off and snatching your hand away’ when your brother tries to take your bar of chocolate. The dog has no perception that the behaviour is bad or wrong - it just knows that it works to achieve the result that it wants. I absolutely agree that the dog would be better in a child free home to work on this, and of course a bite to a child is extremely distressing but the dog can be sorted out with some training by the right person in the right environment.

I can happily do anything with any of my 3, cuddles, bending over them, whatever and re cuddles, I don’t have a choice, my knee is a carousel of dogs.

Liver and white is a working lines pup, both parents work. My first two were also working. I haven’t had any issues with them being working, they’re walked, given plenty to do, go swimming, play then crash. Working dogs are seasonal, it’s not all year r. Many are family pets the rest of the year.

Theres an awful lot of conflicting advice on here about how to treat dogs. For me, they fit in the house (I’m kidding myself, my life revolves around them!) and I can do anything with them, even my very reactive one.

I think the OP is doing the right thing. I feel for her.

Some dogs perceive being loomed over as a “ Threat”
Often dogs that are puppy farmed, from back yard breeders or imports.
Early days are so important to dogs.
There are a lot of very fearful dogs about especially Lockdown puppies poorly raised to cash in.
Ive only had easy to handle dogs, ( rescue and well reared) but made sure Son when young 9 yrs onwards knew how to handle a dog.
We also chose/ choose dogs that fit our lifestyle and own temperaments.
This is so important.

Killing the little dog is not the answer, he needs to be given to a person who knows how to handle him

It's actually the complete opposite - cuddling and bending over a dog is generally considered threatening behaviour in dog language.

Yes, some dogs don't mind being cuddled and others might actively seek it out, but it shouldn't be something that's considered normal behaviour. Ideally you should always approach dogs on their level (crouching down) and call them over to you if you want their attention, not approach them and force them to take your affection.

I think the OP is doing the right thing. I feel for her.

I feel for the children and dog.

Sorry, I didn’t mean that flippantly. I agree that OP and family don’t seem suitable for having a dog , but they might be more willing to learn how to train - the dog and the children.