Our dog bit ds in the face and drew blood

[Differentusernametoday]

please be kind, I am really shaken and need some support.

We have an 11 month old springer. We have a few issues with him, mostly anxiety related, and are waiting to see a behaviourist. I don’t trust him because he has growled at us before, and has bitten my hand and snapped at me, although to be fair both times I feel we’re partly my fault. This afternoon, he was on the sofa bed put down for guests - ds2saw him and told him to get off, apparently dog growled at him, ds tried to move him and dog bit his face and has drawn blood. Currently waiting in a&e now. Ds2 is devastated and knows he should not have tried to move him when he had already growled, and blames himself. I feel like I have reached the end of the road and I can’t live with a dog I don’t trust, but it will break ds3’s heart if we rehome him, but in some ways it will be a huge weight lifted. What would you do?

It’s like they wake up and think what bollocks can I make up and put online today. And to think, many of them are bringing up children as well as being in charge of animals. As you say, it’s fucking terrifying.

Don't compare dogs to humans, they are a different species!

It's not bollocks.

That first bite crosses a psychological barrier. It may never happen again if it is the result of (say) the dog getting trodden on. However if it is because the dog is anxious or dominant or just an inherently aggressive animal, it will bit again and the attacks increase in severity.

Similarly your comment about working with a dog to build their confidence only works if you can determine what stresses them and help them to overcome the fear of it. Some dogs are just frightened of almost everything - puppy-farm dogs, for instance may have a generalised anxiety because of the conditions they were raised in, and because their mothers were likely to have been very stressed. You can never predict what might frighten such a dog, and as a dog's only defence is its mouth, it may snap defensively.

We'll have to agree to differ on this point.

It is 11 months old..a puppy! It hasn't been taught properly how to behave. A dog that growls is a dog communicating that they are unhappy. Ignoring growls will lead to the dog not bothering but going straight to bite.
For me it would be a trip to the vet, to check for any physical reason for the behaviour. Then rehoming either through breeder or shelter. It is young enough to successfully be taught.

I would be interested in how much training was done with the dog and whether it was being trained for a dog 'job'.
It sounds like OP realised that it's better to rehome. Yes the DC will be upset but they contributed to the outcome. Both were old enough to know how to behave around the puppy.

It is 11 months old..a puppy! It hasn't been taught properly how to behave. A dog that growls is a dog communicating that they are unhappy. Ignoring growls will lead to the dog not bothering but going straight to bite.
For me it would be a trip to the vet, to check for any physical reason for the behaviour. Then rehoming either through breeder or shelter. It is young enough to successfully be taught.

I would be interested in how much training was done with the dog and whether it was being trained for a dog 'job'.
It sounds like OP realised that it's better to rehome. Yes the DC will be upset but they contributed to the outcome. Both were old enough to know how to behave around the puppy.

It is 11 months old..a puppy! It hasn't been taught properly how to behave. A dog that growls is a dog communicating that they are unhappy. Ignoring growls will lead to the dog not bothering but going straight to bite.
For me it would be a trip to the vet, to check for any physical reason for the behaviour. Then rehoming either through breeder or shelter. It is young enough to successfully be taught.

I would be interested in how much training was done with the dog and whether it was being trained for a dog 'job'.
It sounds like OP realised that it's better to rehome. Yes the DC will be upset but they contributed to the outcome. Both were old enough to know how to behave around the puppy.

There is no such thing as a dog which is universally great with children or families. All dogs of any breed can bite and will bite in the right set of circumstances.

That first bite crosses a psychological barrier.

Dogs' brains are not wired that way. They don't have the capacity for reason or logic. They are literally input-output machines.

Action = consequence.

If the consequence is a reward they repeat the action. If they don't like the consequence they do not repeat the action.

They're also hardwired to avoid conflict wherever possible. Conflict has the possible consequences of injury which may mean death.

They always give off many, many warnings before they resort to snapping or biting but we miss them because the vast majority of dog owners are not educated enough to spot them. If the snap works the dog has learned the consequence of a snap is a reward (the thing they don't like goes away) therefore they have no reason to escalate the behaviour.

They still run through all their warning signs prior to snapping again because they are literally repeating the thing that worked from the start (lip lick, look away, whale eye, stiffening of posture etc) You can still prevent further snapping by learning to read these signs.

Building confidence can include building general trust and confidence rather than building confidence with a specific thing. Clicker training is good for this. It helps build trust and communication between the dog and handler. Absolute Dogs also have a lot of games that help build general confidence in nervous or anxious dogs.

And no you shouldn't be able to "do anything to your family pet". Dogs aren't machines that should be expected to put up with everything, they are living animals entitled to understanding and respect, and it is perfectly natural for them to defend themselves if put in a position where they feel they have to. Growling and biting are natural dog behaviours. That doesn't mean you should just put up with it but it shouldn't be pathologised - your dog isn't broken or defective, it's using normal dog communication to tell you it's uncomfortable. It's the underlying cause of the discomfort that needs addressing, not the growling or biting which are the symptoms not the cause. Otherwise it's like dealing with a crying child by punishing them for making a noise without bothering to figure out why they're upset in the first place.

I always rewarded growling in my reactive dog. Don't get me wrong, I didn't tell him he was a good boy and chuck treats at him but I did listen to him.

If he growled at another dog I moved us away from the other dog. He learned that the action of growling lead to the reward of the scary dog being removed. If he growled at a person I moved the person away. Ditto if he growled at an inanimate object, I wouldn't jump right into a training session to show him whatever he was growling at was okay, I removed the scary thing and built trust. He trusted that I would listen to him and remove the source of his distress.

Generally, he didn't growl, he didn't have to because I learned the early signs and would remove the object of his discomfort before he had to growl.

How the hell is there 3 copies of my post????

Excellent post.

Yes. Because you’re talking shite.

That would be an excellent idea.
Also, shut down the back yard breeders and overseas dog dealers making a very good living out of selling totally unsuitable adult dogs , or desperately young puppies to people turned down by UK rescue centres.

If you are turned down, it’s for a reason.
Insecure garden, young kids, long working hours-

It’s far too easy to buy a dog, and the unscrupulous will sell to anyone, no questions asked- and it’s shocking how few bothered to view puppies with their mother.

Far more stringent regulation needs to be in place, as the dogs are the ones that suffer.

Most families who have a family dog don't invest hours of specialist training to make sure the dog doesn't bite the children. Most good natured dogs and reasonably behaved children cohabit very happily with great benefit for family life. I spent half my childhood curled up in various dogs beds with a book, I remember once visiting a friend whose pointer had a litter of puppies, I spent the entire day in the whelping box with the bitch and puppies. Many bitches are, not surprisingly, protective of their puppies, but fortunately this was a tolerant one and no one raised an eyebrow.
I've had dogs all my life and never been bitten before.
The reason I wasn't prepared to consult a dog behaviourist is because there's no way of knowing if the work being done is successful until the day the dog bites again when you will know it didn't work.
@User1113 There may be different training styles, but I absolutely believe you should be able to remove the dogs dinner if you happen to want to. Or anything else the dog happens to be chewing/eating.
Do we think the Cambridge's spent many hours training Lupo to politely share ice creams with the children and not take a hand at the same time? I think he was probably a naturally gentle dog, who adjusted to the arrival of children quite happily, I'm sure the children will have played with him in the same way most other children play with their dogs.

OP don't take any notice of some of the posters here who are berating you. Probably, like my friend has said, it's all in the breeding, or some dogs being less suited to family life.
So glad the breeder will take your dog back. I'm sure he will have a good life in a home without children.
I just heard from the gamekeeper who now has our dog how much he is loving life out with the other dogs all day long and responding really well to training. He seemed quite surprised what a good recall the dog has, coming back from the pheasants as soon as he is called back, so I know we instigated good training with him, but he wasn't suited to family life. It is what it is and I don't think these things can necessarily be predicted or prevented.

Lupo does not look happy in that picture. His lips are pulled back, you can see the whites of his eyes and his posture appears stiff. All of these are signs of stress in dogs. Of course, you can't tell much from a picture. It might just be a bad photo but my initial reaction to that pic was not "aww, how cute" it was "get that child out of that dog's face".

The majority of dogs would never show more than mild signs of stress like Lupo but that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn to communicate with them better.

@BlackEyeSusan it gets worse with every post. All you're proving is that you've been disrespecting dogs' boundaries since you were a child and still don't know any better. Most (all) responsible owners do invest hours of training to make sure their dog is a well-socialised, well-adjusted member of the family with bite inhibition, which amounts to more or less the same thing. Not sure what the Royal Family have to do with anything but do I think the parents were as sure as possible that the dog was safe around children and had put the work in/paid someone to put the work in? Obviously

What rubbish. Most good natured dogs enjoy cuddling up with children as much as the children enjoy cuddling and playing with them. That's the whole point of a family dog.

What rubbish. Most good-natured dogs enjoy cuddling up with children as much as the children enjoy cuddling and playing with them

No, most dogs tolerate hugs from young children. Very, very few dogs enjoy cuddling with small children. Dogs are not playthings for children and should never be forced to interact with children no matter how cute the pictures look.

Two of mine dislike children. One is utterly terrified of these loud, unpredictable small things. One is just too old to be bothered and will take himself to another room. My third dog is not normal. He is one of the very few dogs (and I have met a lot as a behaviorist) who actively enjoys young children interacting with him and seeks out attention from them. Toddlers are his favorite thing in the world. He also enjoys hugs as long as they're not from behind. He doesn't enjoy hands looming over the top of his head.

www.npr.org/2016/04/30/476212898/lets-not-hug-it-out-with-our-dogs?t=1661207845279

Dogs do not enjoy hugs. Especially not hugs from small children.

You can't have it in the house but rehoming a dog that has bitten a child's face is very irresponsible. You need to speak to a vet and ask their opinion on PTS vs rehoming. And you must be absolutely honest if you do rehome.

Too many bitey dogs are rehomed and then bite someone else.

Our 8 yr old springer cannot be allowed on sofas or chairs. We came close to biting a few times due to situations arising when he was on sofas. He has a very strong startle reflex and this causes the occasional issue ie: if he's sleeping and someone approaches him noisily and at speed. Keeping his cage as his nighttime bed and always allowing him access has helped.
The best advice I received was from a gun dog trainer who pointed out that our dog was over tired and stressed by being around us late at night.
Best of luck with whatever decision you make.

They really dont
Our Ddog is very soppy but I don’t allow children to “cuddle” him. It’s an alien concept for a dog.
He likes to sit against our legs or lie next to us on the floor but he would be very uncomfortable being cuddled and while he probably wouldn’t react it’s not fair to put him in that position

Completely agree, I was aghast at that post. There's a reason we say 'let sleeping dogs lie'.