Struggling with my puppy

[Scaredypup]

I’ve tried. I’ve really really tried. I desperately want to rehome her but my kids would be devastated as would I. I would want to get another a puppy. I’ve wanted one for so long and I planned for years, I’ve done everything right. I just want a ‘normal’ dog that we can enjoy spending time with.
shes 9 months old, she’s unable to go for a walk because she’s so fearful. I can drive her to the park where she’s ok but then she’s so massively over stimulated by every single thing that she’s wired for the rest of the day. She has some obsessive behaviours such as scratching kitchen appliances and the sofas. This means we can not sit invite living room with her at all as. If I have her in the living room I have to actively be doing something with her and then remove her as soon as the activity is finished. She doesn’t know how to settle. She used to settle ok in the kitchen behind the gate but has not taken to crying and barking unless I’m in there with her. I’ve spent more than 6 months of my life sitting in tbe kitchen and I’m sick of it. We can’t move freely around our home, have to be so careful with doors and gates as she’s so destructive.
she also occasionally attacks my 9 year old. He’s so good with her and most of the time he’s nowhere near her, she’ll just go for him for no reason. I thought it was trying to get him to play but now I’m not so sure.
move paid for a behaviourist, and a trainer, she’s on anxiety meds but we’re getting nowhere. Luckily she’s fine on her own but I just want to be able to take her for a normal walk.
I’ve been taking her to the park in the car most days so she’s getting exercise but it doesn’t help her behaviour at all.
my life literally revolves around behaviour management, training, laying out enrichment activities in the street like a lunatic, counter conditioning, I honestly do so much and it’s never enough. I have no life anymore. My kids are shut in their rooms.
I thought a dog would be our best friend and as much as we love her she’s having such a negative impact on our lives. There’s nothing really to enjoy with her.
before anyone asks she’s a frowned upon cockapoo from a great breeder and all of her siblings are fine.

What does she actually do? Just sits and refuses to go any further? Even with high value treats? What if you carry her a bit and then let her walk?

I think it's the poodle genes that are making cockapoos anxious. Poodles are very sensitive and prone to anxiety.

Sorry to hear about the problems.

I think you should be very careful getting another dog in London. Think very carefully about the breed. Cockerpoos are gun dogs and really need to be able to enjoy life in the countryside and where possible off lead. Many people in London have them, in my opinion, it’s really not the best environment.

I have a dog scared on a certain walk. Puts his paws in the ground. I throw a treat, he walks some more puts his paws in the ground again etc etc. But after a few minutes he forgets he is scared and enjoys himself. A behaviourist may have shown you this but I haven’t seen one before, I just needed to go that route.

The other thing (and this happens to me) when I get anxious the dog gets anxious. I hate leaving him and he picks up on this, barking and whining, but my DH doesn’t bat an eyelid and he behaves with him. I have had friends check on whether he is barking and he stops a minute or so, as soon as left!

On the chewing front in the living room could you get some big chews - I get those hairy ones that look like legs (they may even be). It calms him down.

I appreciate my dog is not as anxious as yours but some things I found helped!

A few typos but need to get ready for school!

Have you tried day care. Mine goes to one with a behaviourist and they take the lost souls others won’t! Mine loves it and able to let off steam in a safe and secure environment. They are carefully introduced on settling in days. I can’t remember if your dog likes other dogs?

@Scaredypup have you actually met her litter mates and spoken to their owners? I’m curious if it’s the breeder saying “they’re fine” but they may not actually know. I’m in a WhatsApp group with my current dog’s siblings owners. Obviously we only know what they share but we meet periodically so I have an idea of the temperament of them all. I do wonder if it’s something genetic.’It sounds like you’ve done so much work and yet, your dog continues to be difficult and distressed.

@XelaM sbe really really panics. She frantically pulls and tries to run away, pulls so hard, whole body cowering low to the ground, cries ect. I haven’t taken her more than 2 minutes away from home for ages, so nothing has really warranted those reaction for some time now but now she reaches what she sees as her threshold or boundary and just won’t budge, and pulls the other way. If I tried to force it she’d panic. She won’t take treats at this point. Even really high value. Same as in the car. If I tried to carry her she would freak out and claw at me.

@Lifeisaminestrone both the behaviourist and trainer said they didn’t think day care would be good for her when I asked. She’s so easily over aroused and stimulated that it would just cause trigger stacking and she’s already struggling to settle ect. They think it would make her worse. She needs to be kept calm as much as possible. They’ve even advised me not to let her engage in high energy play at the park with dogs, but I don’t really agree with that as she enjoys it and needs to burn off energy somehow.

@Teder I’m in contact with 3 of them. I think it was a littler of 6 or 7. The breeder also has a fb page and owners of other litters comment on there and seem happy.

I’m a little concerned with some of their suggestions - the puppy is 9 months old and they need to let off steam. As you said she was fine when you were on holiday.

Do you know if there are any rescue fosters who may take her for a few nights. Separate to the trainers and behaviourists?

I’m not an expert but feel sorry for the little pup. Some FB groups are a great help and someone may have her for a few days. I would offer but I’m too far from you.

Are you sure she would not get a bit less anxious if she was with an older confident dog in doggy daycare? Maybe a dog walker with one other dog could change her mind?

I have an anxious dog. She was hideously anxious as a puppy, other than my immediate family and partner, she would literally scream and wet herself if anyone else came near her. No way would she take any treat, she was FAR too nervous. Luckily, I was able to put aside a HUGE amount of time to train her, became her advocate, didn't let anyone speak to her unless they explicitly followed my instructions and now, although she still isn't keen or the most confident in certain circumstances, she is a fab dog we can take anywhere and she is for the most part, incredibly happy/enthusiastic.

9 months is quite late to be able to 'reverse' any problems in all honesty. By that age, dogs are kind of hard wired to react in a certain way to stimulus. She sounds horribly unhappy and the situation is stressful for you and it is probably best for the pup if you can find a different home for her, perhaps in the countryside in a quieter home. Would the breeder help with this? (What would the breeder do if they took her back? My worry is they may keep her as a breeding dog if she isn't neutered)

Should you get another dog? Definitely not immediately. I would take some time to decompress and consider whether you could have done anything differently and what you would do if you got another dog and began experiencing similar issues? If you do get another dog and can find a reputable breeder that would consider you as a home, I would look at pedigree dogs, whose temprement can be of more certainty and take a lot of time to speak to different breeders and meet their dogs. Find a line of the breed you like that has a robust temprement and that the breeder will be honest about whether they can cope in your environment. You could look at an older dog being rehomed by a breeder, these are often lovely and well socialised dogs and can perhaps be older puppies. If you contact breed clubs they can put you in touch with breeders, or go to a dog show and meet some.

Op sometimes mumsnet is the worse place to ever ask for advice on a puppy . I have read so many posts and it's upsetting . Even tho your post has got to be the kindest I have seen with hardly no harsh comments . I know exactly how you feel . My boy hasn't long turned one and I love him more then life , would not ans could not ever imagine life without him . I never knew I could love as deep as I do . But if you asked me when I had him all you would of had off me is he's the biggest mistake of my life ! I was so depressed. I cried every day thinking I have ruined my life because just like your pup being your Shadow and constant attention . Mine was the same . I wanted my life back because I felt it was ruined for ever . I didn't have time to watch anything on tv because of how naughty he was . I used to sit in my car and day dream about going to a hotel and not coming back because I couldn't deal with him or the lack of sleep because he woundnt sleep . He now sleeps in bed with us 😂 . If I can do it op you can and that's honest to god . If it's a boy have him done . It's supposed to calm them down so much also I have heard the same with girls . My dog is a complete different dog now he's grown up . Although he loves his walks because he is a big dog . We are out for a good three hours morning and then when I get home . If I didn't he would be a pain in the arse . But if you can don't let anyone make you feel guilty and I mean that . I honestly felt like I did when I had my daughter when we 1st got the pup . Psd! The pup is young enough to settle so where else and as for people saying don't get another dog that I don't agree with . Get a golden retriever. That's what my boy is and he's brilliant xxx

Until I got to the bit where she is going for your child I thought you were a little bit mean but you’ve done your research, you’ve done everything suggested and it’s not helping.

I think it would be nicer on all of you (including her) to be rehomed.

My dog is like yours op. People suggesting coaxing with treats and sending her to daycare have obviously never worked with a truly anxious dog. A dog having a panic attack will not take treats. If I sent my dog to daycare I don't think he would ever recover, and it would be very dangerous as a terrified dog is a potentially aggressive one.

We are also seeing a veterinary behaviourist. They gave us a "sink" analogy and explained how once the sink is full he is over threshold and will react. The hot tap is things he is afraid of; the cold tap is things he likes but are stimulating (eg running around, chasing balls, playing tug, obedience work). Both taps fill the sink. Our focus is draining the sink and that means reducing cold tap (fun) stimulus too. For the time being he stays on lead and is only offered low arousal activities. Once the sink is consistently less full, he will be able to learn new things and we can gradually add more stimulus/fun/training.

At first I was very sceptical as dogs NEED to blow off steam right? Wrong! He is so so much happier with less exercise, less activity, less stimulation. (And he is a malinois cross!!) 2 x 30 min sniffy walks/day and some freework. That's it. The rest of the time he sleeps. When he was having 2hrs exercise/day and lots of play time, he was a whining, pacing, anxious, barking, reactive mess.

See what your behaviourist thinks, but it sounds like your girl is not benefitting from outside walks at the moment. It's too stressful and then her sink will be overflowing for the rest of the day causing undesired behaviours at home. I would cut out walks completely and focus on calm enrichment inside - my dog loves freework (great for confidence too) and destruction boxes. Lots of things to lick and chew as that's very calming. Just take all the pressure off for a few weeks and she how she is then.

I really sympathise with you because it's so very hard and the grief is real. But there is hope: my dog is dog aggressive as well as being terrified of everything and I have even thought of pts (more than once!). But after 6 months of drainage he is coming on great - he can take treats outside now and that means he can start learning.

I did move house though as we were in the town centre and it was too much. Honestly, I can't imagine my guy coping in central London.

So sorry for you and your pup x

I would stop trying to walk him for now. Play with him in the garden. Get his confidence up. Keep him calm. Maybe he'll be a dog that doesn't go for walks. In situations like this that can be a better option or maybe you'll be able to work with him more when he is calmer and you will be able to build walks into his day.

I don't think they're is anything wrong with rehoming him to a more suitable home. I think people should do this when their home does not suit their dog at all. It is better than keeping a dog in a environment that stresses them.

Some dogs are just born anxious. A dog is not always the product of the owner. Sometimes genetics won't allow a dog to be solid. Do not take any notice of anybody saying it is your fault.

All the tips in the world here but eventually you have to ask youirself how much of this fear it is fair to ask the dog to endure in order to produce the behaviour you want from them.

Is it ethical to keep them in an evironment they find so stressful - which I think is what you're asking yourself OP, so all credit to you for keeping your doig's welfare foremost in your mind.

At this stage I think I'd be having honest conversation with your behaviourist about the levels of stress your dog is currently under and the realistic assesment of how long they might be this stressed and the prognosis for significant welfare improvement.

Sometimes, we let the guilt of what we want stop us from doing what is best for the dog. You may want to rehome and feel guilty about that, and it blinds you to the reality that rehoming may be what's best for the dog too. I'm not saying it is: just calling out where guilt sometimes does not help us.

Whatever you decide is for the best, OP, you sound like you will have come to that decision with the help of professionals and with the dog's welfare as a key consideration: no one can ask more from a dog owner than that.

I sympathise too as I have an anxious dog who I can't walk. I've been advised to cut out walks and if we go out just take him somewhere close to the car for a sniff around. I also can't leave him. It's miserable to be honest and I regret having rehomed him- but I'm giving the advice I've received a go. I've not had him a year yet so I'm not giving up just yet - but I think if there was aggression to my child in the mix that would be it for me .

@TheChestertons I'm interested in your experience as we have been given the same advice but I'm finding it tough to manage him in the home while I work without a walk. I do enrichment etc. I'm hoping it's just an adjustment period - did you find this ? I'm just taking him for a quick sniff around in the evening , not a proper walk (where I end up with a mix of coaxing / luring to get him moving half way through even though he starts off very keen). Also started on medication which I hope will help me make progress on the SA training.

@stillherenow yeah it was a big adjustment - mostly for me because I felt so guilty about him not having enough exercise/stimulation! He's also on meds and that was an adjustment too.

It took a while to figure out what works for him, and your dog might be different, but these seem to be: lots of sleep, licking/chewing (liver paste squirted in hooves/trachea/kongs or spread on things), freework, destroying boxes/cardboard with treats hidden in them (he will need to destroy a few boxes before he's relaxed enough to chew so I often put the chews in the boxes) and just keeping everything really calm and predictable. It's so difficult when you're trying to work as well as making all these changes but it does work, and it does get easier. 🙂

Thanks @TheChestertons we made a big mistake this evening after 3 days of trying no walks as advised I couldn't take it anymore and took him out - he froze half way back and I thought I was never ever going to get home. Miserable for both of us.

Now I am going to give the behaviourist plan a proper go.

I might start my own thread on this soon as am struggling too!.

OP I know how you feel being jealous of other owners, I never ever thought I'd end up with a dog I can't walk!

@TheChestertons yes we have been given the same analogy and the same advice. I just find it so hard to get my head around, that not only is she scared of everything, but I also need to deprive her of the experiences she enjoys, playing with other dogs ect as that also fills the sink. I feel like I spend every waking minute when I’m not at work (reduced 3 hours a day) doing enrichment. Lickimats, kongs, free work, sniffing games, creating games out of boxes, cardboard. It’s exhausting. None of it helps her sleep as much as a good run around the park.

The other issue is we don’t have a garden. We have a small paved area but it’s not enough to play on and she won’t toilet out there. Before anyone jumps on me for not having a garden, it wouldn’t be an issue at all if she was able to walk and luckily we have a small enclosed dog park opposite us that’s always empty so we go there a couple of times a day. But because of not weeing in our space I have to take her out 4 times a day. Sometimes this works, other days we’ll be unlucky and a motorbike, a delivery driver, someone with a suitcase ect all go past at once and it sets her back as she panics.

the other thing with having a dog you can’t take out means she ends up spending an unfair amount of time alone some days. Eg, the school runs where ideally she’d come with me. I can’t even take my son in the park after school anymore as I have to get back for the dog. Or weekends if we want a day out at a nice park, I always imagined she’d come with us now we just can’t go.

interested to hear what differences people noticed with medication?

God dog people are self-righteous fuckers.

I think it's time you re homed this dog . She's not the right fit for you especially as you have no garden and a simple thing as being let out to toilet is a stressful situation as she has to go to the dog park.
You have done your best but it's time to let her go to a home that suits her better .

This 👆🏻

Yes that all sounds very familiar, it's exhausting isn't it?! I'm lucky that I don't have kids and was able to move somewhere quieter. But it has still completely taken over my life. No way could I have coped if I had kids too. I take my hat off to you.

It really sounds like you have done all you can and more but the environment is just not right for her. I can toot my own horn about following the behaviorists advice etc but I think the biggest difference for my dog has been moving out of the town - he was constantly disturbed by all the noise and smells. And that's a small town. The toilet situation sounds really difficult too. It's no life, for either of you x

In your situation I would return the dog to the breeder. No one is benefiting from the current situation, not least the dog. This could continue for 10+ years.

Just over a year ago we took the horrible decision to return a pup to her breeder. She was the 5th dog of that breed that we had, so experienced owners. We got a behaviourist to support. One evening I looked at my husband, who is a good bit older than me, and thought I can’t let this dog blight his last years. We could not trust her round grandchildren either.

I NEVER thought I’d be ‘that person’ who gave up on a dog. I still feel sad and guilty, but know it was the right thing. She wasn’t the right dog for us, and just as importantly, we were not the right people for her.

I feel for you. It’s a horrible situation to be in.

OP one thing that your dog might appreciate if you don't already have it is a covered den with just an entrance (ie a crate with everything apart from the entrance hole covered). This means she can go in there and hopefully really feel safe, secure, there is nothing at all stimulating and she knows she will be left completely alone. Maybe also some very gentle music played very quietly if she finds that relaxing and helpful to block out other sounds.