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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Dog attacked another dog unprovoked

130 replies

Dogincident · 28/02/2022 15:38

Just as the title says really. Our dog was out with our walker, had just left the house and was down the road when she attacked another dog as it came around the corner. Walker brought her back to the house and as she was unlocking the door the other owner walked past with the dog and she launched herself at them again. I got to the door as our walker got hold of her again and took her in and locked her away whilst our walker took off after the other owner to talk.

I'm horrified, everybody was shaken up, she's never done anything like this before and whilst she's started getting a little barky at other dogs when on the lead very recently, we were told (informally but by somebody well trained) that this is normal for teenage stage and to keep on with what we were doing and continue to socialise, no other even hint at aggression. The only thing I can think of is that she was spayed two weeks ago and this is the first time she's seen the walker since then, so she was extremely excited and jumping around so maybe she's hurt herself in the moment?!

We've informed the police, popped a note through the other owners door with our information and contacted our insurance. Our insurance is saying that they won't cover it third party because our walker had her at the time. So we let our walker know but our walkers insurance apparently expired last year and she forgot to renew it.

I'm now sat waiting for the other owner to get in touch (I didn't go speak to him at the time as I have two young children and our walker went, and frankly, I was completely and utterly confused by what was going on until the walker told me that my dog had attacked his and she was going over to talk to him). We knew that we had some training that needed addressing but nothing like this, more lead pulling, recall and snatching food from the kids type thing! The things that we didn't address well being novice owners and accidentally ending up with a 'Lockdown puppy' (so ended up unable to get classes until she was an older puppy). Ironic that we purposely waited until the first Lockdown ended to get a dog as we didn't want to be one of 'those' people but apparently we are.

We were already in the process of sorting a trainer to come visit and will see if they can come sooner now, but now I'm all unsettled and wondering what to do. We have two young kids, she's usually with us all day and hangs out with us in our living room but at this moment I don't feel comfortable doing that, she's our family pet and whilst I'm always aware that she could snap at the kids because she is a dog at the end of the day, I'm now actually worried about it because she was just a completely different dog and was properly going for the poor creature. We have a ring doorbell so I have watched the second attack back.

What do we do? She's a GSD so a big and strong dog who could easily cause damage, we're lucky that she didn't do worse to the poor other dog. We did our research, waited until Lockdown ended to put a deposit on a dog, sourced her from a lovely family home that we visited repeatedly and followed the sires very active social media and could see that they were from people who know what they are doing, took her to puppy training when space became available and tried to train her at home. And now I'm wondering if i can trust her with my kids.

OP posts:
WetRainbowRoses · 02/03/2022 00:36

If you think collies are soft, you’ve never seen them work tbh
I hate to break this to you, but, people are not sheep...
I have more experience with collies than you think i do and would argue that is most definitely you that is need of education here on this one.

They are a soft submissive breed. 100%. A ‘Yes’ dog. A desperate to please dog.
They are not a breed that needs a so called ‘firm hand’ or ‘strong leadership’.
They are not a breed known for challenging authority.
They are great at herding and yes, they will try and herd anything, people included but they are soft as shit dogs.
You would not get one working as a general purpose police dog.
You just wouldn’t.
They do not have the temperament because they were bred as herders and herders only.

There is no comparison between a collie ‘detaining’ sheep and a police dog ‘detaining a person.
None at all.
Collies herd mostly by eye for a start!
They don’t run round biting and grabbing the sheep..

Police dogs ‘detain’ by biting, literally run up and grab and bite down.
You will not get that behaviour easily in a collie and if you do I guarantee the second the criminal screams, shouts, hits out etc the collie will be off like a shot.
Because they are soft submissive dogs.

It’s gone well derailed but honestly, while appearance might play a small role, it truly is about genetic capability.
GSD were bred for herding yes, but also for guarding, police, scentwork etc.
It is written in their original breed standard.

Claiming they are purely herders and never meant to be attacking/guarding/detaining whatever, I’m sorry but it’s just outright not true and very unhelpful when people then buy them and expect as PPs said them to be super sociable and easygoing.

WetRainbowRoses · 02/03/2022 00:48

Also, this comment:

But a guard dog and a protection dog don’t do the same thing
An effective guard dog alerts people about an intruder, it doesn’t attack
Police dogs aren’t really either of those though

‘Protection’ dogs, by which I assume you mean personal protection dogs, are almost always either German Shepherds, Belgian Shepherds or Dutch shepherds.
Almost exclusively.
There are small numbers of other breeds used like rottweilers and Dobermanns but personal protection dogs are pretty much always GSD or BSD or DSD.

tabulahrasa · 02/03/2022 01:46

“Claiming they are purely herders and never meant to be attacking/guarding/detaining whatever, I’m sorry but it’s just outright not true and very unhelpful when people then buy them and expect as PPs said them to be super sociable and easygoing.”

I didn’t say that to be fair, I was just pointing out that police work isn’t the best example because it’s mostly not what people think it is and how breeds are selected for modern working roles isn’t purely on traits.

GSD’s make great guide dogs for example but for that the perception people have of them works against them.

Though.. to be honest, I do think it’s the herding traits that cause novice owners the most issues, not many breeds with a herding origin are exactly super social easygoing dogs.

Suzi888 · 02/03/2022 02:19

@Hoppinggreen

Attacking another dog does not mean a dog is a danger to your children for a start. Also get rid of the dog walker, not having insurance is a really big deal. Do you know what damage has actually been caused to the other dog? Dog attacks and fights can look very dramatic but a lot of it is noise. However, it might be a good idea to muzzle when out for now until your dog has been checked by a vet and assessed by a properly qualified behaviourist. You sound very upset and shaken but there’s no need to panic
^ this Get a muzzle, don’t panic!
fairylightsandwaxmelts · 02/03/2022 06:54

I also have never checked if my dog Walker has insurance either. Not to the extent of seeing the paperwork. She says she does and I trusted her.

I don't think this is unusual @CovoidOfAllHumanity - I've been a dog walker for two years and in all that time
only one person has asked to see proof of insurance.

However I would urge you (and anyone else who uses a walker) to make sure she has it and also check what her policy covers. Some policies, for example, limit the number of dogs you're allowed to take, others won't cover scraps between dogs in the walkers care etc.

Relying on the word of your walker is fine when everything is going well, but when things go wrong it could make an already stressful and upsetting time even worse for all of you.

Justilou1 · 02/03/2022 07:46

I am 50 and had GSDs for most of my life. I know that reputable breeders are trying to change this, but GSDs are not what they once were. They used to be bigger, with a stronger, more stable skeletal structure and a much less “jumpy” temperament. They became the “it” dog for the dickheads needing a “fierce” breed, who would now be attracted to the American Pittbulls, Dogue De Bordeaux, etc… The “Breed Standard” changed to include weird aesthetic requirements that have not just affected their physical quality of life, but their psychological. My experience with GSDs is that they used to be sensitive, intuitive dogs until the breed standard got all weird. They not only bred bone problems and heart issues into the dogs, but they bred tiny, pointy heads with little room for brains. This has altered their personalities and intelligence. I do wonder if they even get headaches.
Not long before I was born, my uncle “tamed” one that he found in in the bush in Tasmania. (One of the most remote parts of Australia). He was a huge, big-boned dog who had a massive distrust of people until I came home from hospital. He was the only one who spotted my mother’s PND and mania and assigned himself the role of my guardian. (In 1972 PND didn’t exist, but he knew!) This giant dog kept me entertained and stood between me and my mum when she was at her worst. Because I’d been a premmie, and largely neglected, when I wasn’t walking at 3, people assumed that I had brain damage. Not that dog. He pushed me into walking and I pulled myself up on his lips and ears and tail - whatever I could grab, and that big softie kept insisting I could do it. (I had dislocated hips and needed calipers until I was eight, leaving me with a deformed hip and leg, but am cognitively fine.)

Leonberger · 02/03/2022 07:56

The state of the breed is the reason I won’t have any more and moved to a different breed with more stable personalities.
The show lines are deformed with short chunky faces. The pet line is neurotic and either tiny or giant with loads of allergy and skin conditions, the working line are probably best of the bunch but soooo much drive and nowhere to outlet it in a normal household.

FAQs · 02/03/2022 08:01

@Dogincident post spay aggression is not unheard of, my parents dog personality changed for about five weeks after spaying, the vet sent links to explain the reasons, she is back to her normal self now.

FAQs · 02/03/2022 08:03

@Justilou1

I am 50 and had GSDs for most of my life. I know that reputable breeders are trying to change this, but GSDs are not what they once were. They used to be bigger, with a stronger, more stable skeletal structure and a much less “jumpy” temperament. They became the “it” dog for the dickheads needing a “fierce” breed, who would now be attracted to the American Pittbulls, Dogue De Bordeaux, etc… The “Breed Standard” changed to include weird aesthetic requirements that have not just affected their physical quality of life, but their psychological. My experience with GSDs is that they used to be sensitive, intuitive dogs until the breed standard got all weird. They not only bred bone problems and heart issues into the dogs, but they bred tiny, pointy heads with little room for brains. This has altered their personalities and intelligence. I do wonder if they even get headaches. Not long before I was born, my uncle “tamed” one that he found in in the bush in Tasmania. (One of the most remote parts of Australia). He was a huge, big-boned dog who had a massive distrust of people until I came home from hospital. He was the only one who spotted my mother’s PND and mania and assigned himself the role of my guardian. (In 1972 PND didn’t exist, but he knew!) This giant dog kept me entertained and stood between me and my mum when she was at her worst. Because I’d been a premmie, and largely neglected, when I wasn’t walking at 3, people assumed that I had brain damage. Not that dog. He pushed me into walking and I pulled myself up on his lips and ears and tail - whatever I could grab, and that big softie kept insisting I could do it. (I had dislocated hips and needed calipers until I was eight, leaving me with a deformed hip and leg, but am cognitively fine.)
Amazing dog ❤️ What a bind you must have had.
FAQs · 02/03/2022 08:03

*bond

ThisisMax · 02/03/2022 08:05

@Leonberger

The state of the breed is the reason I won’t have any more and moved to a different breed with more stable personalities. The show lines are deformed with short chunky faces. The pet line is neurotic and either tiny or giant with loads of allergy and skin conditions, the working line are probably best of the bunch but soooo much drive and nowhere to outlet it in a normal household.
The best I have seen that are not working but not over bred/ showlines are Alsace Royale German Shepherds who breed what people here remember as the breed years ago. I did not get mine from them but if I was getting another I think I would, they are supposed to be really excellent.
Lampface · 02/03/2022 08:14

I was waiting for you to say your dog had just been spayed.

Our wee girl had similar reactions on her first walks after being spayed too. We found out it was because she was in more pain than usual and needed medical support for longer than usual. Sounds like she was the same age too.

So yeah, my first port of call would be going to the vets to get her checked out.

theqentity · 02/03/2022 08:29

I don't know why you'd get a GSD with young kids about. They're not family dogs at all. They're working dogs or guard dogs.

My best friend's dog was attacked by a GSD last week. It jumped its garden fence to get to it. Police were already aware of it.

Hoppinggreen · 02/03/2022 09:07

They are beautiful dogs and like a PP I have happy memories of one as a child, although it was a neighbours dog.
However, it’s a lot of dog for a novice owner and with children as well. There is one local to me who is a bit nervous of other dogs, having being told off by older dogs (including mine) for being too much when a puppy. It’s now starting to react in a more aggressive rather than defensive way when it sees other dogs as it gets older. It’s 7 months now and huge and I can see it becoming a problem

contrary13 · 02/03/2022 09:55

@Justilou1
"He was a huge, big-boned dog who had a massive distrust of people until I came home from hospital. He was the only one who spotted my mother’s PND and mania and assigned himself the role of my guardian. (In 1972 PND didn’t exist, but he knew!) This giant dog kept me entertained and stood between me and my mum when she was at her worst. Because I’d been a premmie, and largely neglected, when I wasn’t walking at 3, people assumed that I had brain damage. Not that dog. He pushed me into walking and I pulled myself up on his lips and ears and tail - whatever I could grab, and that big softie kept insisting I could do it."

My parents GSDs (or Alsations as they were still known back then) were 1 (bitch) and 6 (dog) years old when I was born. The dog was used as my soldier father's security dog and was actually even bigger than their 70kg one is, now. Everyone around the unit knew him as "the gentle giant" - until he was sent after someone by my father. He was also bred from a show line (straight backs) by the woman who was my grandmother's midwife (as in, she helped to deliver my mother and her brother), and who later employed my then 13 year old mother as one of their kennel girls. The bitch, on the other hand, was rescued as an underweight, abused pup from someone my parents describe as "a known terrorist" in NI (my father was livid when my mother admitted where the tiny pup had come from!) at the height of "the troubles". She loathed soldiers and would routinely pin my father with hackles up if he came home in uniform (once back in England) until he spoke. But the moment I was brought home from hospital? Despite the midwives all trying to insist they be got rid of before i was born as they were "dangerous" and would "savage" me to death... they effectively became mine. And yep; both recognised something in my mother post-birth that wasn't officially recognised/then documented - and both routinely got between me and her when she was on a rampage against me for... I don't know, being a kid. I'd flee beneath the dining table and the bitch, in particular (who taught me how to walk by letting me grab hold of her collar and her fur and slowly pacing as I staggered alongside her) would stand between me and my mother, her "owner" - who didn't dare to try and get past her because, as she's since admitted, she knew the bitch would go for her. It's been 35 years since the bitch died - actually fighting off an intruder to our home, whilst dying from cancer, in an effort to protect me from his raping me (he and his accomplice beat her up so badly that she died 2 weeks later) - and not a day goes by when I don't think of them both. In those 35 years, I've had a GSD of my own and two GSD crosses (his unexpected pups with my lab/whippet bitch). I was 12 when my GSD came into my life, so about 18 months after losing the bitch who parented me more effectively than my mother, and he went everywhere but school with me. He didn't even need a lead, he'd stick so closely to my side.

I am experienced with GSDs, but I'll tell you this - I'd never have one with children of my own, or grandchildren on the horizon. Because I recognise precisely how lucky we were to have been blessed with 4 good dogs.

My daughter, who wasn't raised with GSDs in her life, other than her grandparents one since she turned 20 and whom she sees maybe once every few months for an hour or so, is planning on moving in with her (equally dog clueless) boyfriend and starting a family of her own. They want a GSD. It'll be an unmitigated disaster. Both work outside of the home, neither understand the breed (well, dogs in general actually - even the boyfriend's mother is worried!) and there will be a bored, unsocialised GSD - a breed which I think we can all agree are prone to stress disorders if not properly occupied - with at least one small child (the boyfriend already has a child) wandering around. It's an accident waiting to happen.

My Springer was from working gun dog stock and, although the laziest spaniel on the face of the planet, throughly great for small children (and went to work with me!). Highly intelligent, very capable, would happily have given his life for my son. My Kokoni... has Corgi and Border Collie within her "mix", and (possibly because she's also a rescue) she is neurotic; and yes, the herding instinct is strong within her. But she is my assistance dog (I'm disabled) and that keeps her occupied - and me out in the world, as I have to push myself, for her. Both of my dogs as an adult, and the GSD of my teen years, are/were trained to hand as well as verbal signals.

Not one of them has ever snatched food from my children's mouths, or hands, no matter how tempted they might have been. Neither of my parents GSDs when I was a child ever snatched food from my mouth or hands.

Post-spaying pain, or fluctating hormones aside, @Dogincident, I genuinely think you've got more than one issue that urgently needs to be addressed correctly - for the sake of you children's safety, as well as your pup's! Flowers

contrary13 · 02/03/2022 10:05

"As for the 70kg shep that’s crazy big! The breed standard say they should be small to medium!"

@Leonberger - his parents were both huge dogs, too; their breeder chooses her lines with specific diligence to reintroducing the GSDs "of old" (the larger boned, bigger skulled, straight backed ones). The sire was shown at Crufts in the Obedience class a few times, and won his class at least once, and she only breeds the dam once every few years (not always to the same sire!). She knows her stuff, in fairness, and has impeccable showlines.

You say that you've never seen a small GSD? There was a craze, maybe 10 years or so ago now, for them to be no taller than an adult's knee (top pf their head). Like "teacup Yorkies" or "miniature Poodles"'s breed standards were deliberately fucked around with to create something cutesy that would make their breeders a lot of money... Sad

Dogincident · 02/03/2022 12:35

This thread has taken on a life of it's own in the past 24 hours! I'm not going to join the debate about whether GSDs are suitable family pets. We did our research before getting a dog, spent years working out what breeds would suit us/our lifestyle (outdoors heavy and walking heavy) and waited until we were in a property that was a decent size and belonged to us, etc. I didn't research potential permenant changes after adolescence because, frankly, I didn't know it was a thing and this is the first I've heard of it. We were aware of potential GSD issues though and now it appears we have some of those issues we'll be working with professionals to do what we can for our girl.

Regarding the food snatching that's been mentioned a few times, I probably should have explained that this isn't ongoing in that we let it happen now, it was something that occurred a bit when she was younger (and a few times since then admittedly when we've let our guard down) and our response to that has been to put her in a different room whilst the kids eat if we aren't there to directly supervise, however we would like that to move to a point where we can trust her to not do it of her own accord as we know she would given the opportunity.

Anyway, I thought I'd come back and update and cover some othe rpoints I have seen mentioned. I'll probably leave you to debating the finer points of GSDs after this!

Vet has referred our GSD to RCVS though apparently it is a long waiting list, so I've found a couple of other clinical behaviourists who have trained with RCVS who I'm hoping that our vet will be happy to refer us to to cut down the wait time before seeing somebody.

We always intended to move from basic training to something extra like scentwork or agility or flyball or just something to give her that extra mental stimulation, we have various options locally, though obviously this incident will likely delay that and make us choose something that doesn't involve being around other dogs, we'll contact the places again once we've had the behaviourist in for an initial consult and see what they suggest.

Another thing we wanted to get a trainer in for was to move from not lead pulling to running with us as both DH and I are keen for her to join us running regularly but the lead pulling when walking needs tackling first and we've obviously cocked up somewhere with that as we've tried things for long stretches and nothing has worked long or she's made it work to her advantage as was the case of turning as soon as she starts pulling where she would use it to get us to her favourite field where DH takes her to play! She's not stupid Hmm We have actually had training regarding this already but that trainer clearly wasn't working for us, so we've been on a waitlist for another.

RE the walker's insurance, we are both certain that she told us she had it, I don't think that I'm wrong to have trusted her word (and having worked with people's kids I've never been asked for my insurance certificates and have basically had to throw it at parents along with my DBS, qualifications and other checks!). However, I certainly wouldn't be letting GSD near another dog carer in any way, shape or form before seeing a certificate confirming that in future. Though it's unlikely that we're ever going to trust somebody else with her again to be honest.

DH spoke to the second owner of the injured dog yesterday as the main owner wasn't available. Injured dog is doing well, thankfully. Owner and other dog also okay. They are very aware that our walker was in charge and also commented that they're aware that she doesn't have insurance, which she's either gone back to tell them (unlikely as she's trying to wash her hands of it) or she's told them this in the immediate aftermath, in which case she's lied to us about having it ever and did when I asked her to let us know her insurance details later in the day to pass onto the owner of the injured dog.

They don't blame us or our dog by the sounds of things, obviously they're upset but they're reassured that we're taking this seriously, appreciate that we're trying to do the right thing by them and that we're taking action immediately to help our dog (apparently they were concerned that we might have her PTS rather than try deal with the behaviours). Their dogs are tricky and not keen on other dogs also, and they are walked with muzzles and always on lead, so they're understanding.

The stories of wonderful GSDs are gorgeous, I had one negative experience with a GSD as a child, but many good ones with friend's GSDs later on, one friend in particular had an ex-police GSD, he was a wonderful creature and extremely tolerant of screechy, hyperactive teen girls in his house!

OP posts:
InkySquid · 02/03/2022 12:40

We always intended to move from basic training to something extra like scentwork or agility or flyball or just something to give her that extra mental stimulation

It might be worth looking into mantrailing. I know the group we do mantrailing with can work with dogs that are reactive to dogs and/or people.

Dogincident · 02/03/2022 12:43

I should add that we've briefly discussed the financials in that we're leaving insurance to deal with it for now and if they can't (which will be the case) then we'll discuss a way forward then. We'll sort that and deal with the walker afterwards, I'm not leaving the other owner out of pocket because our dog was a twat. Our home insurance will cover us dealing with the walker.

OP posts:
Glenthebattleostrich · 02/03/2022 14:59

Poor girl is probably still sore from her operation. And all hormonal.

I absolutely adore GSDs, grew up with them. Our rescue boy used to love when Mum and Dad had my neice and nephew because it meant he could have naptime with them and of course the extra snacks. He was so gentle you could put a biscuit on a balloon and he would take it without popping it. He was a gorgeous bundle of love. The main problem with him was he thought he was a lap dog.

Glad the other owner and dogs are OK and they will appreciate that you've been so proactive. Its amazing how many owners aren't.

And absolutely agree about breed standards. I know lots of people are sniffy about cross breeds but I think breed standards can be far more dangerous to the animals.

Justilou1 · 02/03/2022 16:34

I think that you have behaved absolutely honourably @Dogincident. You are a superstar. Your dog was just reacting to stimulus like a dog. Unfortunately they’re overly anthropomorphised these days, and people forget that dogs don’t think the same way we do. The dog walked needs to be shamed all over public media.

tabulahrasa · 02/03/2022 17:24

“Their dogs are tricky and not keen on other dogs also, and they are walked with muzzles and always on lead, so they're understanding.”

It might well be that actually your dog doesn’t have as big of an issue as you’re currently thinking - I’m not saying don’t follow through with your plans, just that it might well have been a bit of a perfect storm of combined things... yours is not quite finished healing from the spay, they’ll likely have reacted somehow even if just in body language and neither they or your dog were happy about suddenly being that close and it’s kicked off.

Like I said, I’m not saying don’t follow through with your plans because obviously you want to make sure your dog has injured another and you want to make sure everything is ok going forward, but it’s very unlikely that their issues with dogs aren’t a factor in it.

NotALapDog · 02/03/2022 19:26

The main problem with him was he thought he was a lap dog.

Same Grin

OP, you have handled this really well! As others have said, your dog may not even be dog aggressive, it's probably a few different things that created the situation, one of them being that your dog still hasn't healed from being spayed.

Of course, once it happens, you don't really want to risk it, just I'm case.

It might be worth having friends with dogs come over or meet up (on-lead) just to see how she reacts.

You are being very responsible though. I can't believe the dog walker didn't have insurance Shock

Dog attacked another dog unprovoked
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 02/03/2022 21:05

OP if you want to run with her, and she's a natural puller, get some proper canicross equipment and look up that sport.
Lots of reactive/unsocial dogs in canicross so people aren't bothered by that, muzzles are very popular/common pieces of equipment, & given a focus of running with appropriate commands, dogs often learn & choose to ignore/tolerate other dogs. It's a brilliant sport.

WetRainbowRoses · 03/03/2022 09:29

OP, you have handled this really well
I agree

As others have said, your dog may not even be dog aggressive
This though, is a terrifying thought.

The dog caused injury and went back a second time.
Yes if the other dogs have issues themselves there probably was confrontational body language and yes OPs dog may have been uncomfortable from the spay but ultimately the OPs dog caused the other dog to need emergency surgery.

She absolutely is dog aggressive.
Maybe not to all dogs but she has shown what she is capable of and no sensible person would consider ever letting her interact with other dogs again.

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