Dog attacked another dog unprovoked

[Dogincident]

Just as the title says really. Our dog was out with our walker, had just left the house and was down the road when she attacked another dog as it came around the corner. Walker brought her back to the house and as she was unlocking the door the other owner walked past with the dog and she launched herself at them again. I got to the door as our walker got hold of her again and took her in and locked her away whilst our walker took off after the other owner to talk.

I'm horrified, everybody was shaken up, she's never done anything like this before and whilst she's started getting a little barky at other dogs when on the lead very recently, we were told (informally but by somebody well trained) that this is normal for teenage stage and to keep on with what we were doing and continue to socialise, no other even hint at aggression. The only thing I can think of is that she was spayed two weeks ago and this is the first time she's seen the walker since then, so she was extremely excited and jumping around so maybe she's hurt herself in the moment?!

We've informed the police, popped a note through the other owners door with our information and contacted our insurance. Our insurance is saying that they won't cover it third party because our walker had her at the time. So we let our walker know but our walkers insurance apparently expired last year and she forgot to renew it.

I'm now sat waiting for the other owner to get in touch (I didn't go speak to him at the time as I have two young children and our walker went, and frankly, I was completely and utterly confused by what was going on until the walker told me that my dog had attacked his and she was going over to talk to him). We knew that we had some training that needed addressing but nothing like this, more lead pulling, recall and snatching food from the kids type thing! The things that we didn't address well being novice owners and accidentally ending up with a 'Lockdown puppy' (so ended up unable to get classes until she was an older puppy). Ironic that we purposely waited until the first Lockdown ended to get a dog as we didn't want to be one of 'those' people but apparently we are.

We were already in the process of sorting a trainer to come visit and will see if they can come sooner now, but now I'm all unsettled and wondering what to do. We have two young kids, she's usually with us all day and hangs out with us in our living room but at this moment I don't feel comfortable doing that, she's our family pet and whilst I'm always aware that she could snap at the kids because she is a dog at the end of the day, I'm now actually worried about it because she was just a completely different dog and was properly going for the poor creature. We have a ring doorbell so I have watched the second attack back.

What do we do? She's a GSD so a big and strong dog who could easily cause damage, we're lucky that she didn't do worse to the poor other dog. We did our research, waited until Lockdown ended to put a deposit on a dog, sourced her from a lovely family home that we visited repeatedly and followed the sires very active social media and could see that they were from people who know what they are doing, took her to puppy training when space became available and tried to train her at home. And now I'm wondering if i can trust her with my kids.

My parents' GSD weighs 70kg. That's heavier than both of my adult children. He is also reactive, following my mother having been bitten (badly) by another dog during a walk last summer - he was inactive during it, but now seems to be of the mindset that he'll prevent another dog from hurting his mum again.

I grew up with GSDs, and because my parents' one has become reactive - I won't trust him with my 17 and 26-year-olds, or (perhaps more importantly) my smaller dog. He's trained... but he is reactive.

OP, you have a few issues here - even though you've actually done everything right. I'm guessing that you have no experience of GSDs prior to this one? 2 weeks post spaying, she will have hormones going rampant. And yes, may well be in some pain (my Kokoni bitch suffered from scar tissue tightening for some months prior due to a full mammary strip on top of the spaying - but she didn't attack any other dogs!). She may well be over-protective of your children or have decided that she's above them regardless hence the snatching of food from them (you really need to stamp down on this through positive reinforcement!). But more importantly, did you check your walker's credentials for yourselves - or rely on hearsay? Because if they're "word of mouth" and over Sm, then... chances are they've never been insured.

Was the other dog's walker/owner injured? You mentioned that his foot may have been bitten. You really need to mention your dog walker to the police, just to make sure that it's all clear.

My GSD bit his own pup (11/12 months old) as they both hurtled to the front door late at night following a random knock. No problems up until then, whatsoever. However... the older dog bit through the younger dog's leg and took a chunk out of his head (resulting in epilepsy for the next 13 years - which isn't cheap, medication-wise!). We ended up having to keep them separate, and when my children came along? They were never allowed together unless I or my mother were there.

If you genuinely believed that your walker had insurance... pursue this. Make sure you let everyone know that they "allowed [their] insurance to lapse" whilst still walking dogs, too. I'm willing to bet that they never paid the (expensive) premiums to begin with, though. Do everything that you can to stop this from happening again to some other family - because now? Your family dog is a ticking time bomb as far as the police are concerned. Through no fault of your own, or their own.

Good luck.

My dog is soft as shit and I trust her completely. She would never hurt a child even when that child is rough with her. She understands they are young. There is a labrador living round the corner whom she hates. She absolutely fucking despises it and goes for it every time she sees it. She's never gone for any other dog in her life but this one.

Luckily she's 13 with arthritis and the other dog is about 3 so she hasn't a hope in hell of catching her but it's crazy. It's never so much as barked at her. I have no idea why the aggressive response. We just keep them well away from each other.

I don't think they're really meant as pets - they're working animals and most homes don't have the time or knowledge to handle them

I disagree.
Most GSDs you see now are not bred for working, they are from show lines or generations of dogs bred as pets and look nothing like the ‘proper’ working GSDs.
GSDs now are weirdly shaped and in my experience completely neurotic, high strung/over sensitive and intolerant of other dogs.

It seems that the police/army now seem to favour the Malinois over the GSD, I agree with a PP, I think the breed has changed. And not in a good way.

They may not be bred to work anymore but you can't just breed out decades of instinct overnight.

Actually, on Sunday, I had to firmly instruct my 17-year-old to stop tickling my parents' GSD's feet and "back away carefully" because the dog's body language was "someone stop him... before I do!". Had I not been watching them? My son might now have half his face missing. Having said that... my son thinks he can tickle the GSD because he watches the same dog climb all over me and gently chew on my chin whilst making Chewbacca noises. Difference? I'm 45 years old and have spent my whole life with them in it... my son? Grew up/was raised with a Springer Spaniel and a Kokoni. He doesn't grasp their body language... I do. He doesn't respect their body language. I do.

GSDs are not "bad" dogs, actually, they're far better with small children than labradors (who have a shorter temperament and a draw bite). It just takes people who know what they're doing with them, who grasp a dog's body language, and an understanding that a cute puppy needs work - not palming off onto someone who is unlikely to have insurance.

My parents' GSD is 6 years old. He was sourced from an impeccable breeder (who breeds straight backs) by myself. He is well trained. He respected my elderly Springer and is respectful of my 5-year-old Kokoni. He has only become reactive following my 71-year-old mother having been badly bitten by a golden retriever during a dog walk, 11 months ago. However... he's 70kg and intact. Not being left unsupervised by those who don't actually know what they're doing with the breed.

GSDs are not a breed anyone should get based on how cute they look as puppies. They grow up. And depending on whether or not their person actually knows how to train/raise them, is the crunch factor. Often for children's faces.

@fairylightsandwaxmelts

I've got to agree with the posters who are saying they've never once met a GSD that wasn't dog reactive, sadly.

I don't think they're really meant as pets - they're working animals and most homes don't have the time or knowledge to handle them.

This! Over and over!

Same with collies but for slightly different reasons.

I would not have my small child around a gsd, they’re not family pets (although you do get the odd really lovely one) police choose them as attack dogs for a reason.

I can see you’re doing your best op but I would consider this your warning and keep that hound away from your kids.

Knowing i had such a stark warning and still let my kids get injured is not something I could live with

They may not be bred to work anymore but you can't just breed out decades of instinct overnight
I agree of course but what I meant was that they aren’t suitable for working anymore either.
They’ve changed.
You have two entirely different types now; ‘working’ and ‘show/pet’ and the vast majority you see out and about are out of show/pet lines.
They couldn’t work.
They don’t have the right personality anymore and the fact that the working line GSD appears to be rapidly be being replaced by Belgian Malinois by armies and security companies and police forces suggests to me that maybe the working bred aren’t so well bred anymore either

I disagree that they are dangerous around children. Some of them make the most fantastic pets. Remember they are bred to be devoted to family and protect them not savage them.
I’ve never had a hint of aggression from any of the GSD in my home. My current one is the sweetest softest child friendly dog you could ever meet. I would never put her in a position where she could be dangerous and I think that should be the case for all dogs big or small.
They usually get themselves into bother trying to protect the home or family member from whatever it is they imagine they danger is. This is why it’s so important they have a confident knowledgable owner that understands the breed inside and out. Having someone who gets a guardian breed and then expects it to invite everyone in for kisses has not done their research. They really need to be given a job or they will invent one for themselves!

As for the 70kg shep that’s crazy big! The breed standard say they should be small to medium!

And sorry Op for derailing your thread, I am not for one second suggesting your not capable I’m just speaking in general

Sorry typo I meant medium to large
Can’t imagine a small shep!

@WetRainbowRoses

They may not be bred to work anymore but you can't just breed out decades of instinct overnight I agree of course but what I meant was that they aren’t suitable for working anymore either. They’ve changed. You have two entirely different types now; ‘working’ and ‘show/pet’ and the vast majority you see out and about are out of show/pet lines. They couldn’t work. They don’t have the right personality anymore and the fact that the working line GSD appears to be rapidly be being replaced by Belgian Malinois by armies and security companies and police forces suggests to me that maybe the working bred aren’t so well bred anymore either

I have a working line GSD from a European line and sire is a title holder and I tend to agree with a lot of the above. I choose this dog because I did not want a show/ sloping back type and wanted to do some scentwork/ obedience. I'm very experienced with dogs and rescue for many years but I am still surprised exactly how easy it is to get mine over threshold to the point where he will not/ cannot listen - pushed over by other dogs etc (not even close - just there). So he is not as 'solid' as I would have liked - that said he is great with people and as a breed they are supposed to be slightly aloof and quick to notice anything suspicious but I am very surprised with mine - not in a bad way - it just means that I have to train super hard with a good trainer and accept that maybe he is less sociable than I would want with other dogs. I have no issues at home, with food or my kids - he is super good but at 6 months I can see how without really considered re-direction he could turn out very badly not because he is nasty but because he is easy to hype up - thats not what a solid working dog is for me. Its interesting the comment above on the Malinois - I think, while they are really hyper they potentially want to please more IF you can give them the work so maybe more partnership focussed. I love my dog but if you are unprepared for this breed you would very quickly be out of your depth. I think the OP unfortunately trusted her dog with a walker who ignored or missed threshold cues and ended up in the situation she ended up in. Lots of good feedback on the thread and sadly so many people have had poor GSD experiences - partly just due to the breed/ genetics and others due to poor handling.

@FelixViolet

I have seen some lovely, well-behaved GSD and GSD-mixes walking on-lead, unmuzzled, down busy main roads in London, not reacting to dogs. So, it's not a given that GSDs need to be muzzled, but if you notice any dog aggression at all (barking out the window at then, or pulling at leads and barking) then you need to start muzzling.

Presumably though these are very well trained dogs? Personally I can never trust any GSD after a few very nasty experiences no involving another dog. As for those who say you can do whatever you like with your GSD? That’s exactly what the bl... owner of an off leash GSD said when their dog leapt a 4’ wall to attack me as I walked by their house- I didn’t even know the dog was there! 35 stitches later in my scalp and back I am lucky to be here. Thank god I didn’t have my young DGCs with me, I was walking to collect them from school and nursery. I am very wary of husky types too, the ones around here are scary.

As for those who say you can do whatever you like with your GSD?

We can, as their family and friends, etc because he isn't aggressive to people. Surely that's what people mean? That in their home with their dog, they can do whatever they like to them and the dog isn't aggressive.

Mine may be muzzled on walks for the safety of other dogs, but just recently I stopped to talk to an elderly gentleman who was in his front garden, and my dog loved him.

We can't do whatever we like with other dogs because he is dog-aggressive.

I'm not sure how you would police people having their dogs off-lead and unmuzzled in their own gardens, though. The dog that attacked you clearly is people-aggressive, not just dog-aggressive.

Someone in my family had a rottie attack them as a child, it was put down. But I've also known very child-friendly rotties who were gentle and caring and would follow the children around and lay beside them. One time the front door was left open and a toddler got into the front garden, and the two family rotties were dutifully right there next to him and barked to let them know.

I try not to judge breeds but it is harder when you've had very bad experiences.i am sorry you went through that.

“I'm reassured to hear about the dogs who are fine at home and dog averse”

It’s pretty common tbh, dogs are very aware that people aren’t other dogs.

My last dog was a Rottweiler with issues severe enough that he was on lead and muzzled in public for most of his life - he was a sweetheart with us though, because we were his people.

Umm interesting opinions on GSD.

GSD are herding dogs - so their natural instinct posters talk about is to herd. They natural instincts are not to bite and be aggressive.

I would argue that they are used as police dogs and security dogs because they can be extremely calm under pressure and are extremely trainable. Put a cockerpoo with a high energy football crowd or a terrier and they would go mental. The GSD can be calm and still able to work in such situations. They are amazingly clever dogs and often pretty sensitive.

Like collies they need a job to do so they can get themselves into trouble in a home that does not meet their need. Herding dogs need to be independent and need to work often with one person hence the sometime aloof nature of GSD.

The picture some of you are painting of the majority of GSD is incorrect.

I spend a large amount of my time working with aggressive dogs and dogs with a bite history. Many dogs have bitten and will then once assessed will never go on to bite again. Work out the trigger, work with the trigger never put the dog in the same sitation again and the dog will never bite again.

Some dogs with medical issues or too many triggers this is not the case however .

Only a qualified professional can advise on that.

I do feel a bit sorry for the dog walker tbh. If the dog had never displayed this behaviour before and seconds after getting out of the house reacted this way - she also would have been surprised by the reaction. She had not seen the dog for 2 weeks would not have had time to have assessed the situation before the dog reacted.

Personally I would have thought there would have been some subtle behaviour changes in the home that the dog walker would not have seen. This is a very difficult situation that may have been hard for her to anticipate.

GSD are herding dogs - so their natural instinct posters talk about is to herd. They natural instincts are not to bite and be aggressive
Von Stephenitz created them as dual purpose sheepdogs and guards.

They were absolutely intended to guard aswell, I forget the exact description used but he was clear they were dual purpose dogs able to herd, guard and be a loyal family dog.

Theres a reason Australian Kelpies and Border Collies are not used in the police but GSD and Belgian Shepherd are.

@PollyRoulllson thats interesting. Do you think with your experience that a lot of GSD are easy to go over threshold- that their threshold for other dogs etc is quite low?
It seems that a lot of them boil over quickly- how do you get over this in training? Are the police dogs extra super steady just from a particular breed line?

“Theres a reason Australian Kelpies and Border Collies are not used in the police but GSD and Belgian Shepherd are”

Um... actually, the reason certain breeds are used over others for police work is image.

There’s no logical reason at all that a poodle or even a cockapoo wouldn’t make just as good a sniffer dog as a spaniel, but what they’ve found is handlers are reluctant to have them.

And with other roles it’s that they go for the herding breeds that they know look intimidating...because that’s part of the job.

Guarding isn’t what police dogs do, GSDs do make good guard dogs, but it’s for the same reason collies do, they notice things and then shout about it.

I also don’t recognise the gsd the majority are describing, apart from “aloof” & “guarding” mine definitely isn’t interested in strangers, humans or dogs. But loves his people and his dogs. He barks when someone rings the bell ect. I would say he’s as solid as a dog could be, I’d never say 💯 about any animal. he’s very old now. Saying all that, I wouldnt have allowed him to snatch from the children, that would have worried me massively, they’re big strong dogs and I wouldn’t have one I didn’t trust around my children. As suggested above very firm training needed, the dog must know it’s place.

@tabulahrasa this will have to be an agreed to disagree I’m afraid.

Max Von stephanitz created the breed and he was crystal clear that it was intended as a multiple purpose dog.
A sheep herder and a guard/security dog.
They were bred as multiple purpose dogs.
It’s written in their breed standard!
The actual breed standard by Stephanitz, not the Kennel Club one.

There are multiple breeds perfectly biddable and just as, if not more intimidating looking to choose if it was purely about appearance, it’s about genetics and what the dog was originally bred to do.
Genetics are why certain herding breeds (German/Belgian/Dutch shepherds) are used.
Not their looks.

Collies are absolutely not guard dogs.
They have next to no guard/protective ability.
They sheep herd.
They are completely soft submissive dogs and were never intended to guard anything.
You would literally never find one as a police or security dog because genetically they don’t have it.

Yup. Due to their intelligence, collies were considered for army work in WWI, but they could not be trained to defend or attack.

“A sheep herder and a guard/security dog.”

I’m aware

But a guard dog and a protection dog don’t do the same thing.

An effective guard dog alerts people about an intruder, it doesn’t attack.

Police dogs aren’t really either of those though, that’s why I’m saying actually breed matters less than you’d think, most police dogs are sniffer dogs (of one thing or another) the rest are more search and rescue or use the same skills with a bit of detain added. If you think collies are soft, you’ve never seen them work tbh.

But I say it’s about image because I’ve read lots of things saying that coming from the police, that they’ve trialled other breeds, successfully but couldn’t get enough handlers wanting them over the more normal breeds.

“but they could not be trained to defend or attack.”

Police dogs don’t attack, they detain... it’s pretty much what collies do to sheep, collies will quite happily round people up too.

Nothing you can do now, but I really would not recommend a GSD as a 1st or even 2nd dog to a novice owner. They are really best suited to experienced dog owners.

It sounds like you have a good plan in place for moving forwards though, so I hope things go well for you.

Definitely make sure you have the right trainer though. Positive reinforcement is crucial, as all training should be.
GSDs are intelligent, but can be sensitive (for want of a better word) and have a good memory for being treated 'badly'/things upsetting them.

I'm sorry this must be so scary for you OP.
I think there but for the grace we could have been.
I thought we were very ready to get a dog and had done our research but in fact I should have looked into the details of the breed and sex a lot more and what to expect in adolescence.
The rescue wouldn't let us have a GSD cross puppy we looked at because we are novice owners. They were quite right in retrospect we can hardly cope with the adolescent pup we have got.
I also have never checked if my dog Walker has insurance either. Not to the extent of seeing the paperwork. She says she does and I trusted her.