Is there any way to mute my dog?

[UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea]

She’s always been very a very vocal dog - she needs to tell you exactly how she’s feeling at all times, which is basically unsettled/annoyed if you’e doing anything other than sitting still, all together, and only moving to fuss her or get her more food. Now that she’s elderly, a bit senile, and completely deaf, the barking has gone off the scale. It really affects our quality of life.

I was wonit possible to paralyse vocal cords with botox injections?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tighter-controls-on-black-market-botox-3tvl75cqx

Damn, there goes my plan…

That’s a joke, btw, for those I need to explain that to.

[quote BlondeWidow]@UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea I get you OP. I get what you're saying and the tone in which you're asking it. You weren't suggesting it unless it was 'a done thing' in deaf dogs which was widely to be humane & non-stressful for your dog. You weren't suggesting causing any distress nor upset to your dog, you're just stuck between a bark-related din and absolutely loving the bones of your best friend 🐾

It was just a musing. One many, many people will have mused I'm certain.

All the faux outrage on this thread is absolutely insane. Either that or the reading comprehension is severely lacking. Read her posts again and you'll see she's not shown any willing to carry out anything which may upset or harm her dog. Said dog sounds a pampered & indulged pooch to be fair!

We have a Schnauzer and can relate to increased barkiness! I empathise OP! [/quote]
Thank you @BlondeWidow - you get it. She is an absurdly pampered pooch. I was chuckling tonight at the thought of all the MNers who think I’m the dog-hating devil incarnate, as she lay on the sofa between us, on her back with legs in the air, growling every time I stopped rubbing her tummy for even a moment.

We thought about getting a Schnauzer but were a bit put off by their reputation for barkiness. I wish I’d known how vocal (and nuts) cockers are.

@notapizzaeater

Thinking outside the box - can you get dog hearing aids ?

Now that’s something I hadn’t considered! I’ll look into that (although then we’d go back to her barking at thunder, fireworks, other dogs barking, etc…

[quote Hippophile]@curlymom you really need to get a grip. Are you always so hysterical?

Good luck, OP. I have a couple of gorgeous idiots who love the sound of their own voice. I’ve got this under control with whistle training but clearly this won’t help you. You have my total sympathy. Your dog is v lucky to be so loved 🥰[/quote]
Thank you @Hippophile! Idiot dog was very responsive to me whistling - more so than voice, actually, and had decent recall (as long as there wasn’t some delectable shit to roll in or revolting mouldy thing to snaffle). She responded well to clicker training, too.

This thread has made me realise that I need to think laterally and give her more stimulation and training. Her age, deafness and dementia had meant I didn’t really do any training any more, and I think she needs it. Just need to adapt it to her circumstances.

@sillysmiles

Not sure if someone else has suggested but I've seen a video of a dog wearing "quiet ears". The dog still barks but it's like he's barking "under his voice" if that makes any sense

Haven’t heard of those - I’ll look them up, thank you @sillysmiles.

Horrible, just horrible.

@Idratherhaveacuppa

This has made me so sad for lots of reasons. My old boy died a few years ago aged 19. He was a vocal staffy and used to "woo" and huff at us all the time. His vocal range was impressive. Until he went deaf. Then he stopped. I would have loved to have heard his voice again. Your dog needs love and care in her old age.

She gets vast amounts of love and care, thanks for your concern @Idratherhaveacuppa

When she is gone, I will miss many things about her. I will miss her growling. I will miss her woo-woo-wooing and the odd gargling sound she makes. I will miss the other absurd and often bizarre sounds she frequently makes, especially while we’re trying to watch telly.

I will not miss her high pitched whining. I will not miss her barking and piercing yapping.

This does not mean that I don’t love her, it means that those sounds, repeated at close quarters dozens of times a day, make me want to claw my fucking ears off. I’m baffled by how hard that is for some people to understand.

Nor, actually, will I miss the fact that I can’t leave the house unless someone else in the family is here to stay with her, nor that my life is minutely planned around (and limited by) her needs (and she is an extraordinarily needy dog). She is very loved, and I don’t begrudge it at all, but I find it bizarre that I’m being accused of callousness because I don’t love every shrill, high pitched, insistent and fucking pointless noise she makes. And callous because if there were a minor, relatively non-invasive (which presumably botox is, given how many people get their faces filled with it at regular intervals) injection with which she could be ‘stabbed in the throat’ as someone melodramatically put it 🙄 that would mean she could bark to her heart’s content without disturbing me and everyone within a 100 yrd radius, I’d jump at it.

It’s not possible though, it seems, so you don’t need to be sad - she will continue to drive me up the wall with gay abandon.

@SprayedWithDettol

Horrible, just horrible.

ODFOD 🙄🙄

This thread has been rather therapeutic, actually. I feel quite exorcised.

I can sympathise. My dog is only 9 months old but he has a bark that goes right through you. It makes me jump and it really gets to DH and sets him on edge. It is just so incredibly loud and sudden. He also has a range of other delightful noises including actual howling and he deploys these on a very regular basis for cats or birds in the garden, the neighbours making any noise (terraced house), noise from the street or for wanting attention from us for food, a walk, to play or to go outside. It is very wearing.
Unbeknownst to us when we got him as a rescue it's a breed characteristic. He is an Eastern European flock guardian breed so he is bred to alert the flock to danger and boy does he like to do that.

Not sure if this would apply at all to your scenario which sounds much harder but our trainer suggested that we are inadvertently encouraging the barking because we give in to it for the sake of the neighbours and the peace. And/ or we tell him off for it and shout at him which he takes as encouragement
He suggested that

1. we need to vary his routine more because he started barking at times he expects something eg his walk first thing. Trainer reckoned we need to not make it so predictable that he gets excited in anticipation
2. we need to stop rewarding the attention barking and only do what he wants if he is quiet for at least a few seconds. This will cause worse barking at first but then if we don't give in it will lessen as it's not rewarded. He also recommended buying the neighbours some wine or chocs and explaining we are trying to train him. We are practicing this by playing tuggy or ball and making him wait quietly to get his toy back. He barks to get it but we don't give it to him and wait for him to be quiet and make eye contact before the game can carry on. I thought there was some success with this today although early days. He was definitely less noisy in anticipation of his walks because I have been turning my back and stopping getting ready if there is any barking.

Maybe it's too late to do either of those with your girl but just thought I would mention it in case it's helpful.

because I don’t love every shrill, high pitched, insistent and fucking pointless noise she makes.

There is a certain pitch that just goes through you. Our neighbours dog's bark is impossible to listen to. It's impossible to speak to the neighbours because the dog barks constantly. And the pitch is such that it hurts your head.

While I still think I vet wont do what the OP is thinking about, I understand that the OP is coming from a place of frustration.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity thank you for this, and I feel your pain - it's the piercing and sudden nature of it that's so annoying. She has different tones of bark (and growl, and whine) to communicate different things, and the 'give me food' bark has a particular pitch that goes right through me.

All useful stuff with the training, and I hope it improves things for you. It's been a lifelong battle with ours, as she's always been a barker. We've implemented both things that your trainer has suggested, to middlingly good effect when she was younger (middling due to my lack of training skills/consistency, rather than the techniques not being useful). I always did the 'don't reward the barking' thing, which is where clicker training is great, because you can be more precise about the moment you're rewarding - especially useful when they're barking continuously at something and you have to find a brief moment of silence. If you got her attention with a sound (a whistle, her name, or an 'ah!') and she saw you had a treat in your hand, she was generally the best trained dog in the world, for the moment it took to get the treat. Just didn't seem to make much difference to whether she barked next time (which could be a minute later!).

eg she used to bark when a visitor walked in to the house, so I trained her with verbal and hand signals to sit on her mat. She's do that happily for a treat, but would then bark excitedly at me and the treat bowl instead, because she wanted the treat. Every single time, I waited for her to be quiet (and she knows the Shh command), but still she'd always bark (at me) the next time. I think she's just talking, really - like she's saying 'YES I GET IT - I'LL SIT ON THE MAT; GET THE DAMN TREAT READY!'.

I do find it tricky with the being unpredictable thing, because they're just so good at predicting what you're going to do next from your body language.

Training them to do something is always easier than training them not to do something, I find, and it distracts them from the behaviour you don't want. So I trained her that when she was barking in the garden, I'd whistle and if she came to me and sat, she'd get a treat/click and treat. She'd happily do that the majority of the time, although if I didn't then give her a treat she'd immediately she'd bark at me. But now she can't hear me whistle. I either have to go down the bottom of the garden to retrieve her, or stand there dementedly waving my arms, hoping she'll look at me and actually see me waving (her sight's not great either!).

I think I'd given up that things can change now, due to the deafness and the fact that she's ramped it up SO much. She's actually been slightly better in the last couple of days, I suspect because I've been giving her more positive reinforcement as I've been thinking about training more. Your dog's young, so he'll be keen to learn.

And no signs of ear disease/allergies?

Sorry, I missed this question @Veterinari. She's always had issues with her ears - it's been an ongoing battle to keep her comfortable her whole life. She's a show-type cocker, so long, heavy ears. We manage it by clipping the fur very short to maximise air flow, regular cleaning with the cleaner the vet recommended, and using Thornits powder. She's had ear drops from the vet at various points but they've never made much difference tbh. I'll mention it again to the vet, because actually she's been worse lately, although her ears don't look superficially worse - lately she has a nightly ritual of rubbing her ears and muzzle all around the edge of her bed. Her muzzle itches because she has crusty warts, so she likes to rub that against things.

Allergies... she's allergic to/intolerant of wheat (and I suspect other grains) - dramatic diarrhoea and it can bring on the pancreatitis. She has a patch on her tummy that she licks to varying degrees; when it's bad she licks it til it's pink and slightly raised. I showed it to the vet in the past, and she gave us some cream (hydrocortisone, I think), but it doesn't get rid of it completely. If she seems particularly itchy I give her an antihistamine and that seems to calm it down. Since I stopped the kibble and started the herbs, it's been better, but she does still lick from time to time.

@UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea

And no signs of ear disease/allergies?

Sorry, I missed this question @Veterinari. She's always had issues with her ears - it's been an ongoing battle to keep her comfortable her whole life. She's a show-type cocker, so long, heavy ears. We manage it by clipping the fur very short to maximise air flow, regular cleaning with the cleaner the vet recommended, and using Thornits powder. She's had ear drops from the vet at various points but they've never made much difference tbh. I'll mention it again to the vet, because actually she's been worse lately, although her ears don't look superficially worse - lately she has a nightly ritual of rubbing her ears and muzzle all around the edge of her bed. Her muzzle itches because she has crusty warts, so she likes to rub that against things.

Allergies... she's allergic to/intolerant of wheat (and I suspect other grains) - dramatic diarrhoea and it can bring on the pancreatitis. She has a patch on her tummy that she licks to varying degrees; when it's bad she licks it til it's pink and slightly raised. I showed it to the vet in the past, and she gave us some cream (hydrocortisone, I think), but it doesn't get rid of it completely. If she seems particularly itchy I give her an antihistamine and that seems to calm it down. Since I stopped the kibble and started the herbs, it's been better, but she does still lick from time to time.

It sounds as if her allergies are affecting her quality of life and likely driving the deafness

Thornits is vile stuff - would you put talcum powder in your own ear to treat eczema and inflammation? All it does is cause irritation and concretises in the canal as it mixes with any dampness and turns into ear cement. It may well be contributing to her deafness

Something like 90% of skin disease is allergic and can be managed with a hypoallergenic diet, house dust mite control, and topical steroid. Regular cleaning with steroid infused cleaner helps.

My suggestions would be a proper hypoallergenic diet, longterm ear cleaner with steroids and anti anxiety meds.

@Veterinari I don’t mean to be disrespectful by arguing, because I appreciate you taking the time to give advice.

Managing her conditions with a hypoallergenic diet is exactly what I’ve been perfecting for the last 12 years! I get that you’re dismissive of herbs and natural medicines - that has come across amply in your posts, but I have tried many different things for her lifelong conditions - I keep what works and jettison what doesn’t. We have tried foods from ‘science diet’ type hypoallergenic stuff from the vets through to feeding only home cooked, and by trial and elimination have found the brands and food types that she reacts to least (which sometimes changes over time). I’ve tried different herbs and spices - some have helped, some haven’t, so I keep the ones that do. As I said before,her wet food (Forthglade) is either 75% or 90% chicken or turkey (the only meats she tolerates) and veg/minerals. I’m not sure it can get more hypoallergenic.

I have tried all the things the vet has prescribed or recommended over the years - sometimes they’ve helped, sometimes they haven’t. Mostly, tbh, I’ve found that vet prescribed treatments have worked well for acute problems and not so well for chronic problems; much like medical treatments for humans, actually.

And yes, I do use Thornits in my own ears, in fact - I get seborrheic dermatitis in my ears, for which I’ve been prescribed a variety of things over the years, with varying degrees of success in keeping it under control. The only thing that works is Otomise, which they won’t give on repeat because it’s an antibiotic. One day when I was using it on the dog, I wondered if it would help mine so I tried it and it did. I alternate that with using steroid cream.

Thornits is not meant to be used in the ear canal - it’s meant to be used on the inside of the ear flaps around the entrance… which is where I use it. When vets have looked in her ears over the years, I expect they would have pointed out her ear canals being clogged with cement, no?

I get, too, that you don’t believe she’s really deaf… I don’t see how I can convince you, so I shan’t try. It has been a gradual decline over the last four or so years (not that her hearing was ever the best, which we put down to her spaniel ears) which I’ve discussed with my vet as it’s happened. At no point has she said that I’m imagining it, it’s too rare in dogs to be happening, or that I’m somehow causing it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

My mum’s springer was also deaf in his last couple of years, so I’m surprised it’s so rare.

I’ll keep using the vet prescribed ear cleaner, as I have been doing. I’ll definitely ask about anti-anxiety meds. Thank you for your advice - I do appreciate you taking the time.

I’ll check whether the ear cleaner is steroid infused, too, and ask for one if it isn’t.

[quote UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea]@Veterinari I don’t mean to be disrespectful by arguing, because I appreciate you taking the time to give advice.

Managing her conditions with a hypoallergenic diet is exactly what I’ve been perfecting for the last 12 years! I get that you’re dismissive of herbs and natural medicines - that has come across amply in your posts, but I have tried many different things for her lifelong conditions - I keep what works and jettison what doesn’t. We have tried foods from ‘science diet’ type hypoallergenic stuff from the vets through to feeding only home cooked, and by trial and elimination have found the brands and food types that she reacts to least (which sometimes changes over time). I’ve tried different herbs and spices - some have helped, some haven’t, so I keep the ones that do. As I said before,her wet food (Forthglade) is either 75% or 90% chicken or turkey (the only meats she tolerates) and veg/minerals. I’m not sure it can get more hypoallergenic.

I have tried all the things the vet has prescribed or recommended over the years - sometimes they’ve helped, sometimes they haven’t. Mostly, tbh, I’ve found that vet prescribed treatments have worked well for acute problems and not so well for chronic problems; much like medical treatments for humans, actually.

And yes, I do use Thornits in my own ears, in fact - I get seborrheic dermatitis in my ears, for which I’ve been prescribed a variety of things over the years, with varying degrees of success in keeping it under control. The only thing that works is Otomise, which they won’t give on repeat because it’s an antibiotic. One day when I was using it on the dog, I wondered if it would help mine so I tried it and it did. I alternate that with using steroid cream.

Thornits is not meant to be used in the ear canal - it’s meant to be used on the inside of the ear flaps around the entrance… which is where I use it. When vets have looked in her ears over the years, I expect they would have pointed out her ear canals being clogged with cement, no?

I get, too, that you don’t believe she’s really deaf… I don’t see how I can convince you, so I shan’t try. It has been a gradual decline over the last four or so years (not that her hearing was ever the best, which we put down to her spaniel ears) which I’ve discussed with my vet as it’s happened. At no point has she said that I’m imagining it, it’s too rare in dogs to be happening, or that I’m somehow causing it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

My mum’s springer was also deaf in his last couple of years, so I’m surprised it’s so rare.

I’ll keep using the vet prescribed ear cleaner, as I have been doing. I’ll definitely ask about anti-anxiety meds. Thank you for your advice - I do appreciate you taking the time.[/quote]
I'm not dismissive of herbal or alternative therapies at all. There's a good evidence basis for some.

What I'm pointing out is that you keep listing unproven/ineffective therapies and then refusing to try products with a good evidence basis because the unproven things you tried previously didn't work. E.g when I suggested anti anxiety meds, you were reluctant because other things you tried didn't work, you won't try a proper hypoallergenic diet because you think 75% or 90%is the best you can get (it isn't and Forthglades isn't hypoallergenic so that's basically a waste of effort)

I do believe that she's deaf and indeed was able to deduce she likely had ear disease purely because of this clinical sign despite you posting no ear disease history. The reason I deduced that is because deafness is uncommon in 12 year dogs and so the logical explanation for it was untreated ear disease. And that's what she has.

There's zero evidence base that chucking talcum powder in an ear canal does anything except cause irritation and further problems (deafness perhaps). There's zero evidence that thornits has any therapeutic effects and literally no dermatologist would recommend it. There's a reason it's only sold by unqualified folk in pet shops/online, and a reason your dog has chronic ear disease and deafness.

You posted asking for advice. You've been given good evidence based advice on therapies that are likely to work and even if they don't reduce the barking, will make your dog feel significantly better.

Up to you to ignore that advice or not.

Sorry if that last post was brusque OP.
Here's a video reflecting the reality of thornits powder mixed with exudate from otitis. You can easily see how concretions like this will impair hearing.
When you put thornits in your dog's ear it literally has nowhere to go, so the powder builds up over time.
You should never put powder into ears. It doesn't absorb, it doesn't fall out, it just clogs.

m.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=139109446187259&story_fbid=2523275957770584

Steroid ear cleaner, a proper hypoallergenic diet and anti anxiety meds will hopefully help. Good luck

Hmm..
Try this link

I work with a 12yo deaf mini schnauzer. Oh boy does he like his own voice, or rather he used to. Now he is deaf he has no feedback, he either does not bark or some days goes on and on. Part of my job is to take him to the vets, his ears have been studied extensively. No clogging, no infections, almost total deafness, occasionally responds to high pitch whistle. So great empathy from here @UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea.

Allergenic food, have you tried insect protein? wet or Yora for kibble? Yes the prices are eye watering.

@Postdatedpandemic

I work with a 12yo deaf mini schnauzer. Oh boy does he like his own voice, or rather he used to. Now he is deaf he has no feedback, he either does not bark or some days goes on and on. Part of my job is to take him to the vets, his ears have been studied extensively. No clogging, no infections, almost total deafness, occasionally responds to high pitch whistle. So great empathy from here *@UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea*.

Allergenic food, have you tried insect protein? wet or Yora for kibble? Yes the prices are eye watering.

The difference here is that this dog dies have a history of chronic ear disease. No one said deafness in a 12 year old dog was impossible. I said it was unlikely, and I doubt very much years of ear inflammation are coincidental to the hearing loss.

There are plenty of decent hypoallergenic diets that are in a more reasonable price point. I'd recommend one that's been clinically proven eg purina hypoallergenic or Hills ZD

Thank you for the advice @Veterinari, which I appreciate even brusquely delivered. I take your point about the Thornits - I have read the criticisms of it before (which is why I’m very careful to dust it on the inner ear flap around the entrance, and not get it in to the ear canal - same with my own ears), and I will take on board what you’re saying and not use it again. I’ll ask my vet to check really thoroughly that there isn’t any clogging up. Is that video what you can usually see with an otoscope, or does it go deeper down? My vet just uses a normal one, afaik.

The eardrops we have are Canaural, and the cleaner is Cleanaural. It’s not a steroid infused one, so I’ll ask for that, and whether we could try stronger/different drops. I thought we had a different ear cleaner more recently, but can’t find that and DH said he’d been using the Cleanaural. I did find a pack of Nutramind (that we bought from the vets) in the drawer that had dropped down the back, though, so I’ll be giving her those.

Diet… by hypoallergenic, I meant only containing the ingredients we’re confident she doesn’t react to. Forthglade 90% is just chicken (or turkey) and 10% minerals. The other one we give her sometimes is Chicken with liver, sweet potato & vegetables - Chicken (70%), Chicken Liver (5%), Sweet Potato (4%), Carrots (2%), Peas (2%), Minerals, Linseed Oil (0.5%), Dried Seaweed (0.45%), Herbs (Camomile, Parsley, Rosemary, Nettle) (0.12%), Chicory Root Extract (as a source of Prebiotic Fructo-oligosaccharide (0.05%), Glucosamine (50mg/kg), Chondroitin (50mg/kg), Yucca Extract (0.005%). *natural ingredient.

Are there things in there that you think she could be reacting to? Are there brands of the ‘properly’ (Royal Canin type things) hypoallergenic foods you recommend?

I can’t remember the exact brand the vet gave us - it was when she was quite young, after she developed the pancreatitis and it took us quite a while of trying different things until we found out what seemed to suit her. I’m open to trying different things, but if it’s something that doesn’t agree with her, the results are pretty dramatic and it can take a while to settle her digestion back down again, so I’m cautious. She can’t tolerate most meats (other than titbits of lean mean), so we’re confined to chicken or turkey. She likes fresh fish but she’s not wild about fishy dog food.

I didn’t dismiss the anti-anxiety meds - I said I’d ask my vet about them when I take her next week. I’d be very happy if the vet could prescribe something to decrease her anxiety, and would wish that they’d done it years ago!! I did say that I’m surprised my vet hasn’t suggested it, which I am, given that she knows what an anxious critter the idiot dog is - she’s witnessed it first hand (she’s petrified at the vets).

The things that I’d tried in the past that didn’t work were actually recommended by vets - the diffuser thing was suggested by our previous vet, and the Zylkene was recommended by my mum’s vet for their cat. I’m happy to try most things if the vet thinks the benefit-cost ratio is favourable (and obvs the benefit-risk ratio, but assume they’ve already weighed that up). My vet knows we no longer have insurance, though, so expensive long term meds would need to prove their benefit, iyswim (I’m thinking of the cognitive one).

@Postdatedpandemic

I work with a 12yo deaf mini schnauzer. Oh boy does he like his own voice, or rather he used to. Now he is deaf he has no feedback, he either does not bark or some days goes on and on. Part of my job is to take him to the vets, his ears have been studied extensively. No clogging, no infections, almost total deafness, occasionally responds to high pitch whistle. So great empathy from here *@UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea*.

Allergenic food, have you tried insect protein? wet or Yora for kibble? Yes the prices are eye watering.

Thanks @Postdatedpandemic I do think the lack of feedback is a big part of it.

Oh my word…’black soldier fly larvae’… maggot food! I’d be willing to give it a try, and idiot dog goes nuts for live mealworms - I buy them in the summer for feeding birds and she goes to great lengths to get to them and snaffle the lot.