Is there any way to mute my dog?

[UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea]

She’s always been very a very vocal dog - she needs to tell you exactly how she’s feeling at all times, which is basically unsettled/annoyed if you’e doing anything other than sitting still, all together, and only moving to fuss her or get her more food. Now that she’s elderly, a bit senile, and completely deaf, the barking has gone off the scale. It really affects our quality of life.

I was wonit possible to paralyse vocal cords with botox injections?

@brainhurts

Hi op ,to me you came across a little uncaring re Botox to paralyse her vocal cords . I found that a little shocking. But I have no dough you love your dog to bits . Mine doesn't get distressed, I do . I get the barking for food , attention, to go in and out . I feel I can't help her when she's quiet happily barking at nothing. And yes it gets very frustrating and like you wish I could mute her . I think as she can't hear herself she could just happily carry on in her own world barking .

Yes I understand that’s what you (and others) think, @brainhurts, just nobody has given me any logical reason as to why it’s such a terrible and cruel and uncaring thing to wonder. 🤷🏻‍♀️ If, as I’d hoped (and a very brief google had turned up a dodgy looking study on it, so it seemed plausible), it were possible to inject botox into the vocal cords, meaning that she lost her voice with no other ill effects, what on earth is wrong with that in this case?

The vet who responded earlier said that it would be likely to adversely affect her breathing, so that’s my hopes dashed as obviously I wouldn’t want to compromise her health or wellbeing. But all this nonsense about it being cruel to make a deaf dog’s bark silent… nope, sorry - not buying it.

80% of dogs over the age of 8 have osteoarthritis. Almost 90% of dogs over the age of 2 have periodontal disease

The chances of a 12 year old dog being entirely pain free are low. Especially if she shows some signs of stiffness after exercise. Signs of pain related to chronic OA or dental disease are insidious and would present entirely differently to acute pancreatic pain.
For example noise phobias and reactivity are a feature of chronic OA pain
Chronic pain is massively under diagnosed in dogs and accounts for the vast majority of behaviour referrals as it's not detected by the referring vet. Analgesic trials are a good idea in any dog exhibiting a behaviour change.

Cognitive decline can be managed with medications such as Selgian, which is likely what your vet is referring to. I tend to advise patients based on clinical data and the evidence basis for it is good. It is expensive though. Is she insured?

Anxiety is a feature of cognitive decline.
The likelihood is that whilst her hearing acuity may have reduced, she isn't deaf. It's unusual in dogs. It's much more likely that her cognitive function is reduced to a level where she's struggling to respond.

If she's food motivated have you tried occupying her with puzzle feeders or lickimats (which also can be very soothing)

The OP loves and cares for her dog and asked a genuine question, which was answered. Constant barking is awful. Weird to pile in on the OP and then suggest sending the dog to a shelter, which really would be cruel and cause the dog massive distress. People are strange.

@Veterinari I don’t want to seem like I’m arguing, because I’ve seen you give great responses on MN for years, and I’m very grateful for constructive advice. But… I trust my vet - she’s been my wildlife rehab vet too and she’s fab - and she didn’t think she’s in any pain. I told her that she’d been a little stiff after a couple of very long walks and she examined her thoroughly. Since then we stopped walking her more than a couple of miles (she’s never particularly liked walks unless playing a specific game, and has very low tolerance for other dogs). Vet also said she has excellent peridontal health for her age, which I put down to her getting as excited about a broccoli stalk as most dogs get about bones - she eats several a week and has very little tartar on her teeth. I’ll check her gums and take her back to the vet for another checkup, as I haven’t had her there in a while. What would you suggest if a physical exam didn’t show anything? X-rays or scans for OA? Do you think that could be causing the barking rather than the dementia?

We don’t have insurance any more; it became unaffordable due to her age and the pancreatitis, despite the fact that we hadn’t claimed in over three years when we finally said no more.

Oh and the deafness… she really is now totally deaf - there can be very loud noises right beside her, and she has no clue. Her hearing has very obviously declined over the last 4-5 years, and now she no longer reacts to anything at all, sound wise.

@Acesup

The OP loves and cares for her dog and asked a genuine question, which was answered. Constant barking is awful. Weird to pile in on the OP and then suggest sending the dog to a shelter, which really would be cruel and cause the dog massive distress. People are strange.

Thanks @Acesup. People are indeed strange. I’m not sure they’d be so happy about the idea of constant barking if they were living next door to it.

No I wouldn't necessarily suggest X-rays.
The evidence shows that radiographic changes don't correlate with pain experience.

People forget that pain is an emotional as well as a physical experience and low mood/anxiety etc can make an individual's pain experience much worse. So a relatively minor chronic pain experience can become debilitating in an individual that is anxious or frustrated.

If your vet has done a good physical exam and checked for pain including checking joint range of movement and responses to pressure along the gums, spine and abdomen (to ensure no low grade pancreatic grumbling) etc then fair enough. I'd probably still be tempted to trial analgesics (though probably not NSAIDs)

The increased barking may well be associated with cognitive decline alone, but if you aren't trialling meds for that there's not much more that can be done.

My only other suggestion would be to optimise her environment (feeding enrichment, training and comfort) to give her as many positive emotional experiences as possible.

@Veterinari I mentioned the puzzle toy issue above. She loves them but mithers all evening for more, however many times you do it. I bought her a lickimat thinking she’d love it, as she’s an incredibly licky dog, but she wasn’t hugely impressed. I put yoghurt on it, which she likes, but she licked the surface then left it without getting down into the little spikes. She loves to lick me, and growls at me until I let her.

I’ll try doing more training with her, and sniff-based games. She’s got a good nose - it’s the only sense that works fairly well, still. It does increase the barking, though, because it increases her excitement and she wants you to do it forever.

@UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea

Oh and the deafness… she really is now totally deaf - there can be very loud noises right beside her, and she has no clue. Her hearing has very obviously declined over the last 4-5 years, and now she no longer reacts to anything at all, sound wise.

And no signs of ear disease/allergies?

[quote UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea]@Veterinari I mentioned the puzzle toy issue above. She loves them but mithers all evening for more, however many times you do it. I bought her a lickimat thinking she’d love it, as she’s an incredibly licky dog, but she wasn’t hugely impressed. I put yoghurt on it, which she likes, but she licked the surface then left it without getting down into the little spikes. She loves to lick me, and growls at me until I let her.

I’ll try doing more training with her, and sniff-based games. She’s got a good nose - it’s the only sense that works fairly well, still. It does increase the barking, though, because it increases her excitement and she wants you to do it forever.[/quote]
Yeah licking is classic self-soothing anxiety alleviation behaviour.
I'd be discussing anti anxiety meds with your vet. I suspect her longterm anxiety is ramping up with the CD. She sounds much more like she has generalised anxiety disorder than separation anxiety specifically

You could try a snuffle mat instead of a lickimat

Thanks @Veterinari. She did palpate all along her spine, and moved her legs through their range of motion. I don’t remember whether she pressed her gums, but she certainly checked them.

I give her glucosamine and chondroitin supplements, and fish oils. I give her anti-inflammatory and GI-healing herbs - turmeric (and a bit of black pepper), meadowsweet, milk thistle, slippery elm. Also hemp seeds and linseeds, all ground up and that, plus veg, is her mixer with her wet food (which is a 75-90% poultry one) as kibble was not agreeing with her any more (not sure it ever had, tbh, and even wheat/grain free ones would upset her tummy). Yoghurt, eggs chicken and livercake made with buckwheat flour are her only extras. And broccoli stalks. Since I started making the mixer and stopped kibble, her anal gland issues have been better, so I don’t think that’s the issue (we can smell when that’s the issue!).

Thanks for making me think more holistically/laterally. I’d just put it all down to the cognitive decline and thought there was nothing that could be done (short of botoxing her!).

Ooh I’ve never seen the snuffle mats - she’d love that. I often put livercake in a cardboard box (often multiple boxes) and fold it closed - she loves to rip things open.

She most wants to lick me after she eaten (when it’s most revolting to have her lick me )… has meal, barges onto my lap, mad licking of my neck including nibbling my earlobes, then goes to sleep.

She’s always been highly strung - only really happy when you’re sitting down with her. Always would whine if you stopped on a walk, even for a minute - just wants to get it over with and get back home for a cuddle. We tried the plug in Feliway type diffusers - made no difference. Tried Zylkene which my mum said was miraculous for their cat… made no difference. Tried calming herbs… no noticeable difference. Came to the conclusion eventually that that’s just her, so we try to not do/ minimise the things that make her more anxious - ie leaving her alone, leaving her with anyone else.

We tried the plug in Feliway type diffusers - made no difference. Tried Zylkene which my mum said was miraculous for their cat… made no difference. Tried calming herbs… no noticeable difference.

I tend to focus on therapies where there's a good evidence base - I think they're the best 'value for money'. I'm not surprised those things didn't work. That doesn't mean that anti anxiety meds wouldn't be helpful though

Sorry, I posted and ran as was having my own elderly dog issue.

I didn’t meant to suggest that you were suggesting surgical debarking, what I wanted to say was that you wouldn’t find a vet to do anything to physically impair/reduce her barking, even if it were possible, because it is illegal. That actually includes performing any procedure on bones or soft tissue that is done for anything other than medical need. So botox would fall under that category, even if it was possible in theory. It falls under section 5 of the Animal Welfare Act in the UK.

Fwiw, I do empathise about how difficult it can be with certain dogs and their quirks and currently have a geriatric dog with some cognitive issues myself. I also suffer from hyperacusis, so can empathise with how difficult constant barking must be for you. That fact that you are struggling with one aspect of their behaviour, doesn’t mean that you don’t love them or take care of them properly and she actually sounds like she is very loved and treated like royalty.

One thing I would suggest for you, rather than your dog, is looking into trialling some Flare Audio earpieces. They are comfortable to wear and actually reduce the aggravation from noise, iyswim. I have a pair of the cheaper ones and am thinking of upgrading to the pro ones and getting some for my eldest who has ASD, because he gets sensory overload and shuts down when he’s in loud places. Just a thought, but they might help you cope with the shrill nature of the barks.

Thank you @PermanentlyDizzy for your clear and kind advice! Funnily enough, I bought a pair of flare calmer ear plugs last week, but haven’t tried them out yet. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’ll test them tomorrow.

@UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea I get you OP. I get what you're saying and the tone in which you're asking it. You weren't suggesting it unless it was 'a done thing' in deaf dogs which was widely to be humane & non-stressful for your dog. You weren't suggesting causing any distress nor upset to your dog, you're just stuck between a bark-related din and absolutely loving the bones of your best friend 🐾

It was just a musing. One many, many people will have mused I'm certain.

All the faux outrage on this thread is absolutely insane. Either that or the reading comprehension is severely lacking. Read her posts again and you'll see she's not shown any willing to carry out anything which may upset or harm her dog. Said dog sounds a pampered & indulged pooch to be fair!

We have a Schnauzer and can relate to increased barkiness! I empathise OP!

@curlymom

You describe your dog as idiot. Nasty! I hope you don’t get any more attention you crave so much from this sick subject

Oh come on!!! OP was clearly being playful!!! Ffs! I refer to my 7yr old as 'madam' & 'idiot' occasionally! Doesn't mean I don't love her!

Being online has honestly become like one long pantomime

"Oh you nasty person, you called your dramatic dog an...an...an....💥 I.D.I.O.T💥

Character then proceeds to faint

Thinking outside the box - can you get dog hearing aids ?

YANBU to feel frustrated by the constant noise. My friend has a dog like this, it has a horrible, high pitched insistent bark which it uses as a weapon to get its own way. It is a very wilful creature and the bark goes right through me. Consequently I rarely spend time in her home.

Obviously botox injections would be unethical, painful and probably not work anyway, but if there was some minor surgical procedure to reduce the sound that could be done as a one off procedure, then maybe that might be worth considering. I know the kindest thing is to tolerate the dog's annoying ways and be endlessly patient with it, but that's easier said than done when it's a constant barrage of noise. Ultimately if the dog is ruining your quality of life, I don't believe you are morally bound to let the situation continue (possibly for years), and it's unlikely you'd be able to rehome the dog. So, if there is no minor op that can be done, you are left with balancing the dog's needs/wants against your own needs/wants. I would not be a martyr about it, but I understand the ethical dilemma of the situation.

At the very least, it does sound like you need a break from the dog.

OP, I second the anti-anxiety meds. My ddog also went non-stop barking before passing, in her case from non-manageable pain, so I get it. Truly. I would cry myself to sleep every night.

I can't recall what anti-anxiety medication ddog was put in, but I remember that it also acted on pain receptors, so it should have an effect on pain. It also made her sleep more, giving us a reprieve from the barking.

You say she's very food motivated - can you try to distract her? Increasingly difficult puzzle toys, perhaps a bully stick which should last a long time. Split her meals into smaller, more frequent portions, if you're always at home, so she has she joy of having them more often.

@curlymom you really need to get a grip. Are you always so hysterical?

Good luck, OP. I have a couple of gorgeous idiots who love the sound of their own voice. I’ve got this under control with whistle training but clearly this won’t help you. You have my total sympathy. Your dog is v lucky to be so loved 🥰

Not sure if someone else has suggested but I've seen a video of a dog wearing "quiet ears". The dog still barks but it's like he's barking "under his voice" if that makes any sense

[quote Hippophile]@curlymom you really need to get a grip. Are you always so hysterical?

Good luck, OP. I have a couple of gorgeous idiots who love the sound of their own voice. I’ve got this under control with whistle training but clearly this won’t help you. You have my total sympathy. Your dog is v lucky to be so loved 🥰[/quote]
None of your business what I usually am.

[quote BlondeWidow]@UnderTheSkyInsideTheSea I get you OP. I get what you're saying and the tone in which you're asking it. You weren't suggesting it unless it was 'a done thing' in deaf dogs which was widely to be humane & non-stressful for your dog. You weren't suggesting causing any distress nor upset to your dog, you're just stuck between a bark-related din and absolutely loving the bones of your best friend 🐾

It was just a musing. One many, many people will have mused I'm certain.

All the faux outrage on this thread is absolutely insane. Either that or the reading comprehension is severely lacking. Read her posts again and you'll see she's not shown any willing to carry out anything which may upset or harm her dog. Said dog sounds a pampered & indulged pooch to be fair!

We have a Schnauzer and can relate to increased barkiness! I empathise OP! [/quote]
She was suggesting injecting her dog with botox to paralyse its vocal cords. I would suggest anyone who 'muses' this is the insane one.

We all know this is Mumsnet and a shitload of people will read the first post and nothing else, and probably some arsehole out there will think it's a good idea - I think it's really fucking irresponsible that this thread is still up.

This has made me so sad for lots of reasons.
My old boy died a few years ago aged 19. He was a vocal staffy and used to "woo" and huff at us all the time. His vocal range was impressive. Until he went deaf. Then he stopped. I would have loved to have heard his voice again.
Your dog needs love and care in her old age.