shameless brag about my wonderful girl

[momager1]

Today, after a full 24 hrs of panting and pacing and low temp. Our amazing dog went into labor. Now I know alot here do not agree with breeding, however our breeder we have been involved with for over 17 years. this is our third dog out of her . She is an incredible pedigree, so we are what they call a guardian home. I had to allow one breed then the full price of a pup or a pup would be mine. She had the best care including an ultrasound and xray. We knew ahead of time it would be 7 pups. My wonderful breeder drove the 30 min to us today as soon as i called (it was 530 am) by 8 am we have all these amazing pups. and our girl is really being a good mum. So. the picture that would be demanded lol.

You’ve had her a year from she was 7mths, so she’s been bred well under 2 yrs old? not such a great breeder
I agree.
They might be keeping the dogs in good condition but ultimately this is ALL about the money.

I particularly liked the bit where op said:

She had reclaimed her from someone that she saw was advertising her for breeding . against her conditions..and WAY TOO young

Sell a dog, see that the new owner wants to breed them (so they will be raking in potentially £21,000 if each puppy is £3,000 like mum) before she is mature so what do you do?

It’s obvious!
You buy the dog back, sell her to someone else to re coup your money 💵 and breed her yourself!
A bit older but still before she is properly physically and mentally matured.
And you get the £21,000 instead and the money back you paid the person you originally sold her to

There is a lot that needs to be done in this period, health and behaviourwise and not all bitches are happy to feed until 8 weeks

Very strange to be expecting the bitch to still be feeding the pups at eight weeks!
What colour was the stud?Does the breeder own him?
The puppies don’t seem to be the same colour as mum. Are you going to keep one?

No wonder she went to such lengths to resuscitate one of them, if it's worth £3k! That's worth a bit of mucus in the mouth...

As a breeder and exhibitor here in the UK. Your breeder sounds fantastic. Some folk just don't get it. Not all Breeders are out for money and your one seems to have got it right. For those saying she is too young... 18 months is the youngest imo a bitch should be allowed to be bred from. Have never done it myself but know people who have. What is worse are those vets who ask to neuter a puppy before it is 6 months!!! Again, not before 18 months in my opinion should a dog be neutered...it is common though that people get their dogs neutered before then yet that is never a problem but breeding a bitch at 18 months is??? I know which one I think is worse!

18 months is the youngest imo a bitch should be allowed to be bred from
Says who..?
Large breeds are not physically or mentally mature until at least 2, often nearer 3!
So why would it be okay to breed at 18 months?

What is worse are those vets who ask to neuter a puppy before it is 6 months!
Two wrongs don’t make a right.

I get that this breeder is worlds apart from the puppy farm/mill, I get that this breeder takes very good care of the dogs and health tests.
Which is all wonderful of course.

But that doesn’t then cancel everything out and make this ‘okay’.
She may take good care of the dogs, but it’s clearly about the money.
That is obvious from what OP has said.

Pix89 agree, especially about the early neutering. Many vets are keen to emphasise the so called “pros” but very rarely does anyone explain the cons.
Which breed to you show?
Get sick on here of all the breeder bashing. Not all of us are Greeders.
Mine is one of the very rare At Risk native breeds that I care deeply about & don’t want to see become extinct in its native country which it is very much in danger of doing, so I show & occasionally have a litter but haven’t done all through the pandemic due to the crazy situation with puppies now.

@Powertothepetal
Fair point about the larger breed and molosser type breeds. I am only experienced in Toy and small breeds who mature much more quickly. I also stated "imo"...

So what should the breeder charge then to make it not all about money? If 3000CAD is the going rate for a well bred Standard Poodle in Canada, why are they going to charge less? You charge say 2000CAD, certain types of folk will buy them, then what are they going to do? sell them on at 3000CAD to make a quick grand.

@Darklane
Had Bichons for over 20 years (only had 2 litters in that time...I.e. when we wanted a new pup to show) and have just recently got into exhibiting and owning my first Lowchen. How about you? What breed do you have?

So what should the breeder charge then to make it not all about money? If 3000CAD is the going rate for a well bred Standard Poodle in Canada, why are they going to charge less? You charge say 2000CAD, certain types of folk will buy them, then what are they going to do? sell them on at 3000CAD to make a quick grand
My issue isn’t with selling at £3,000 really, though I have to say, I don’t think any dog is worth £3,000 and I would like to see a cap of £1,000 myself.

My issue is that a (good) breeder wouldn’t usually have more than 2 or 3 litters out of a bitch, I think the Kennel Club caps it at 4.
And would keep the spayed bitch on, so they don’t actually usually stand to make that money.
You could argue that their motivation is to breed the next best in show or to improve the breed or produce outstanding pets or therapy dogs etc

But, if you are selling pups/young adults on the understanding that they are to be used for breeding you can breed way more dogs than if you were keeping them on your own premises.

If the breed average for the poodle was say 8 puppies, and you have a litter and sell 3 (as an example) of those puppies on at 7 months old to be used for breeding, if each of those 3 bitches have 8 puppies, you let the owner have one puppy while you sell the remaining 7 of each litter, if my maths is correct, if each puppy was priced at £3,000 you would rake in £63,000.
£63,000
!!

That is very much using the dogs as a business and money maker.

That isn’t mentioning potential stress of the mum and babies being moved around (if I read correctly the OP had the choice of the puppies being birthed at her home or the breeders, the mum is taken to the breeders at 8 weeks too) nor does it take into account that these 7 month old bitches are someone’s much loved pets, there is no guarantee something won’t go badly wrong and the dog and/or puppies may die.

I haven’t bred a litter so don’t know myself but I have heard that having a litter/being used at stud can change a dog’s temperament for the worse sometimes.
I’m not sure that is a fair risk to the owners who aren’t ‘breeders’, they have just been contracted to allow one litter.

I know this breeder paid for DNA tests, hip scores etc but a lot of these so called breeders using guardian homes don’t, they have no idea how the pups sold are actually going to mature.

It just doesn’t sit well with me I’m afraid.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I am a little concerned that the puppies will be in the home of an inexperienced breeder for 8 weeks Everyone has to start somewhere, and OP has a highly experienced breeder on the end of a phone.

TBH I'm not the biggest fan of this method of breeding, but if it means that more dams have fewer litters, it's good for the gene pool.

Everyone does have to start somewhere I guess but that is not where I would get my puppies from.

Good breeders come from a line of breeders, or work with dogs in a certain capacity and have knowledge.

@Powertothepetal
A cap would certainly help I believe especially for the situation we have now in the UK regarding Poodle crosses and "designer" breeds.
I think the KC does cap at 4 Litters...that Breeders can register their Litters with but that doesn't stop some taking extra Litters and not registering....bad I know but sadly not stoppable. They will also not register a litter if the dam is over 7 years old.
Some do get their bitches neutered after they have had litters and then rehome without selling on.
As an owner of a really rare breed (35 pups born in UK last year) I can see why some would set stipulations about having a litter off a bitch like in OPs situation... it is not something I would do with all bitches I sold on but it would help the breed survive. My breed is also prone to very small litters. If I were to do this, I'd have to have an excellent relationship with owner and would highlight every risk involved, I would also stipulate tests etc. but ultimately it would be based on how the bitch turns out in the end...if she failed any tests or didn't come out to breed standard then I obviously wouldn't ask the owner to go through with taking a litter...I have found in the UK good Breeders do the opposite and have restrictions on puppies sold on that they can not be used for breeding unless appropriate health tests have been done and then and only then can restrictions be lifted by the breeder.

Its true, problems can happen...it is rare that all puppies survive a litter and you go through a lot of heartache...I guess it has to be something that is agreed with the owner when first purchasing the puppy. Of breeder and owner have an understanding, agreement and contract in place then...the owner surely will understand the risks involved.

As for moving mum and pups around, a time and place for mum giving birth should be put in place whether this is at the more experienced breeder's home or Owner's is another thing which would have to be agreed. If dam doesn't know breeder well, stay at owners house would be the sensible thing to do...OP did this I believe and breeder of her dog came to help deliver pups. By the time the puppies are 8 weeks, the poor mothers just want rid of them! Especially when they are weaned, the needle teeth are through and they just want milk from her. Both my mummies have pretty much said "sod off" to their offspring at this age...and don't get me wrong, they were both excellent mums.

Everyone does have to start somewhere...but should have done their research, know what they want to improve and be breeding for the right reasons. My mum just bought a puppy from an inexperienced breeder, but this person had a "mentor" of 30+ years of experience with breeding and the breed. The mentor was also the person I got one of my dogs off of. I have no problem with new people having a litter of pups so long as they have done their homework....hey! Im about to have my first baby, I'm inexperienced, I've never had a baby before but I have done what research I can and will learn on the go....its the same with raising a litter. I've been involved with dogs for 20+ years and would still call myself an inexperienced breeder after having only 2 litters in that time...but I know what to do, I know my breeds well and have done my homework by surrounding myself with experienced people and sussing out what improvements my own dogs/line would need. I judge and exhibit and that certainly helps "get your eye in"

I understand that the arrangement in what OP had isn't everyone's cup of tea...but sometimes it can be good for a breed. But as I said, everyone has to agree to the terms and understand the risks involved.

Pix89
Skye Terriers, been showing for over 50 years with occasional litters.
Always near, or at, the top of the KC list of At Risk Native Breeds. Very low numbers of puppies, eg 2013 only 17 puppies were registered for the year compared with thousands for some breeds

Pix89
Are Bichon’s on the At Risk list now then? Though not native so perhaps not.
I’m surprised at the low number of puppies last year. Many Tears rescue always seems to be full of them .

@Darklane
No bichons aren't. Lowchen I would say are though with only 35 registered in UK last year...but again not a UK native breed.
Skyes are so nice 😍 I used to handle a friend's Skye Terriers when she couldn't manage. Such a big dog in a little body!

Not such a little body, they are quite heavy, but very short legs

@Darklane
Absolutely! I still remember the shock of the weight of them after lifting one onto the examination table 🤣 my arms weren't long enough (I was a junior handler at the time)

@Darklane
Many Tears rescue dogs from puppy farms and ones dumped/ of no use to breeders; says a lot about breeders.

A guardian home?! Oh please. Poor dog. You're using her as a money making machine. Shameful.

@HerMammy
"Says a lot about breeders" I could laugh at that statement. Any good and reputable breeder will NEVER let the dogs they bred go into rescue so please do not tar us all with the same brush! I had a boy come back to me at 9 yrs old because his owners overfed him and he developed diabetes and they couldn't afford/didn't want to inject the insulin twice a day that he would be on for the remainder of his life! We took him back and had him til he was 15. Does that "say a lot about Breeders" ?

@Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel
1 litter is hardly using her as a "money making machine". Have you ever seen a puppy mill/farm? I unfortunately have. These are money making machines! Back to back Litters every 6 months with no time for their little bodies to recover, not kept in the house, no tests done, bred to anything and everything for a fast buck. This owner has had her bitch have every test before mating took place, meaning healthy puppies, mum and puppies look clean and comfortable and she agreed terms with her breeder before she bought her.

to clarify .. and then i am off this post of vipers (and some lovelies too) I said i have had her over a year. She was not bred on her first heat which she came into at a year. she had her second heat 5 months later..still too young to breed as not old enough for testing. she came into heat (her third) right at two years. Her breeder had the testing done immediately. It came back clear so she bred her. Yes there is alot of money for the breeder, however this is her full time job. She makes about 18,000 a litter minus all expenses. So far, her expenses for my girl have been about 2300 dollars. She will be paying all the pups vacs, worming microchips etc at the cost of 230 per pup aprox. She will be paying for my girls spay at aprox $240 plus the pain relief for her after at a cost of $80 ish. Leaves a total of 13,870 dollars "profit for the litter" reduce that by 3000 payment back to me for the purchase of my girl. This is because not only did I agree to breed contract, I also am taking time away from work to care for these pups. They will not be alone or without socialization for the next 7 weeks. So . she is making of her Dams a total of aprox 32,000 Canadian dollars a year. that is for all 3 of her dams. she makes 500 cad for each of her guardian home studs that are bred. she uses them twice max and never more than once a year per dog. She has 5 studs right now. so lets add that up. so 5 male breeds a year at 500 is another 2000. so. 32,000 per year. She has answered every call i have had in the over 17 years i have had her dogs (this one is my third and my first is still alive at that age!) And she lives a 30 min drive away if traffic is good. She showed up here this morning to check on the pups and also checked my girls temp and food intake. Told me she will come by tomorrow also but call day or night if I think there is any problem. Not going to defend her here anymore, her reputation speaks for itself. She is awesome. And refuses to breed "designer" dogs. Thanks for those that shared in my joy, for the haters, oh well. You do not know what you are talking about. . Done with this now. Going to go and enjoy the 7 weeks I have with these beauties

[quote Pix89]@HerMammy
"Says a lot about breeders" I could laugh at that statement. Any good and reputable breeder will NEVER let the dogs they bred go into rescue so please do not tar us all with the same brush! I had a boy come back to me at 9 yrs old because his owners overfed him and he developed diabetes and they couldn't afford/didn't want to inject the insulin twice a day that he would be on for the remainder of his life! We took him back and had him til he was 15. Does that "say a lot about Breeders" ?

@Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel
1 litter is hardly using her as a "money making machine". Have you ever seen a puppy mill/farm? I unfortunately have. These are money making machines! Back to back Litters every 6 months with no time for their little bodies to recover, not kept in the house, no tests done, bred to anything and everything for a fast buck. This owner has had her bitch have every test before mating took place, meaning healthy puppies, mum and puppies look clean and comfortable and she agreed terms with her breeder before she bought her.[/quote]
thank you so much. My home is clean and comfy. I moved my dining room table into the garage so i have a whelp pen right beside our sofa (open concept home) I also have a second pen set at the bottom of our bed for when they are old enough to pick up so we can take them upstairs at night. Until then, my husband and i will be taking turns sleeping on the sofa close to them. My Gracie is my life, as is my old girl (17 yrs, same breeder...and yes she only bred her once also!) Thank YOU for also being an ethical breeder.

Puppy pic?

@Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel

A guardian home?! Oh please. Poor dog. You're using her as a money making machine. Shameful.

Well the OP isn't going to be making much out of this, or indeed anything if she keeps herself a nice pup (and if this is a show breeder, I wouldn't get attached to any particular pup in case you are then told you don't get to pick yours).

I am very pro breeding purebred dogs sensibly, but I do find it fascinating that breeders can convince pet owners that they are 'honouring' them with this arrangement. Take the pups back when they can be sold, make $18,000 with very little effort. Farm one of those out from each litter, and nice work if you can get it ...

That said, OP, it's what you signed up to and I hope you thoroughly enjoy the process of rearing your litter. It is exhausting work, but so enjoyable and rewarding when it goes well. I hope you have a truly lovely time with them.

(Make sure that if you keep a pup, there are no similar terms attached ...)

Oh, I love the little apricot poodles. They are gorgeous

Vipers 🤣
No one even blamed you!
Just stated the obvious about the breeder you used.

It’s worth bearing in mind that the so called ‘vipers’ spoke out of concern for the welfare of the dog and puppies.
That’s not such a bad trait in a person.

I don’t like to be ‘that’ poster, but I notice your story has changed..
First you had her a year (after buying at 7 months), then you had her over a year and bred her at 2.

First the breeder breeds ONE litter, you even put that in capitals to really drive it home, now it’s ‘twice max and never more than once a year per dog’

Enjoy your dog from your greedy breeder 👍

@Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel

A guardian home?! Oh please. Poor dog. You're using her as a money making machine. Shameful.

I am NOT using her as a money making machine! Did you miss the part that unless my husband is home I will be not at work for the next 7 weeks? I own a business and employ 22 people full time. They are picking up my slack which i pay them for! I am coming out of this with my gorgeous girl. thats it. certainly no money for me in this deal!!! Ethical breeders like mine and Pix89 breed for the LOVE of the breed. Sorry but with poodles so very very many "breeders" breed them to anything willing to mount them and then charge huge prices for designer dogs (really mutts) nothing wrong with a good ole mutt, but stop breeding for them. Rescue them. Ethical breeders breed their dogs for the love of the breed and to preserve the best qualities in their dogs. I MAY keep the small black and white tux girl (the one that almost died) instead of the money,, but we really need to have a good think about that over the next bit. She would not be on a contract, so no breed for her if i keep her. I wish people would really educate themselves on what is an ethical breeder and what is not.