Let's discuss dog prices

[Blueberrymuffin40]

Been trawling Pets4Homes have just seen dogs advertised for over 12000!!
I can't believe people would pay that for a dog.
The excuse doing the rounds since lockdown 'we've had to put the prices up so people don't sell on' we'll I'm sorry but if that was the case you'd stop breeding until lockdown is over. The real truth is you've bred for the thousands of pounds you can get.... FACT.
Dog theft has risen because of these breeders charging thousands so breeders are putting dogs at risk don't tell me they care about the puppies they breed they breed for the £££££££'s they can get.
Good breeders are in the minority.

14000 pages of dogs! What happens when every household that wants one has one what happens to these puppies.
People have already started selling lockdown puppies and want the money back that they paid for them if not more.
I don't understand why people keep giving to pure greed because that is all it is. It amazes me it really does.

Rant over.

People who pay this what are you thinking? Potentially putting your dog at risk.
Giving grands to obvious greeders?
Why not wait sales will fall and greeders will have no choice put to put prices down or run the risk of having ten grown pups running round.
You may say you can't put a price on a dog but why not wait?
Do you think it's ethical to breed for thousands of pounds.
Do you really think someone who has purposely bred in lockdown hasn't do so for the money?
Before lockdown they weren't anywhere near what they are now.
People who'd already bred before lockdown fair enough but now their is no excuse other than greed.

Yes it’s totally shocking and makes me sick as these so called “BREEDERS” are in my opinion Fake,Con Artists Scammers.
Do not even be taken in by them under no circumstances .

Someone has 'blue eyed puppies' I mean if you don't know all pups have blue eyes when born should you really be breeding?!
Half of them don't even know how to spell the breed they are selling and some don't even know dog lover registered dogs aren't a sign of pedigree! And not worth the paper it's written on.

Think I may need some sleep. I'm not even buying one for a few years yet just winds me up how people still buy off people like this.

Omg!! "GREEDERS" that is absolutely the best term ever! Usually would descrube the backyard breeder of "breeds" with APOO on the end of their made up name. The average price of one of these crossbreeds is about £1500 -£2000 and people readily pay this . Im a veterinary nurse and I judge these greeders pretty strongly. They claim to love their dogs but they are quite happy to put their bitches through a potentially life threatening pregnancy (rare but complications happen), stress, so they can make money. They tell me "oh but shes so lovely, i just want a litter of puppies to carry on her line" fuck off, your using your "pet" as a cash cow stop pretending otherwise.

It's not the price that astounds me as its supply and demand (and lots of items other than pets are selling at record prices).

It's the fact that some people will happily pay those prices but won't for ongoing care like insurance, dog walking or daycare.

'Items' since when did they become 'items' suppose the same time living beings where being described in the same sentence as 'stock and demand'

'They claim to love their dogs but they are quite happy to put their bitches through a potentially life threatening pregnancy (rare but complications happen), stress, so they can make money. They tell me "oh but shes so lovely, i just want a litter of puppies to carry on her line" fuck off, your using your "pet" as a cash cow stop pretending otherwise '

Yep. I've also seen Jrts Cross Labs for sale The Jack russell being the mom how are these people proudly advertising these they also have a Facebook page apparently from the last litter the poor Jack had puppies

I know it's not a very popular opinion, but I completely agree with you OP. I think dog breeding is rife with so much unethical behaviour. Poor dogs.

@Blueberrymuffin40

'Items' since when did they become 'items' suppose the same time living beings where being described in the same sentence as 'stock and demand'

If you want to be pedantic I think in law a dog is classed as an item.

I'm concerned about what happens in 18 months. These dogs are for the most part not getting properly trained. When they're full-sized, unmanageable and owners are out of the house all day for work again, with dog left alone all day...

Many of these dogs won't be easily rehomed. Plus, the market won't even support it: there will be FAR FAR more dogs needing new owners and given that shelters don't usually let families with children adopt dogs, FAR FAR fewer people around who can actually adopt than usual.

And worse - although it's a stretch to find worse than that situation to be honest - is that there will likely be a rise in children being bitten or attacked by their pet dogs or even strange ones. It's not possible to increase the number of poorly trained/socialised dogs and not see an increase in accidents.

There have been quite a few threads about puppy prices in the last year or so.

I had the first account of a litter being re-advertised at a lower price just recently (still eye waterignky expensive, mind you, but not at the prove levels OP is describing). I think demand may have peaked, and this early who wanted a puppy in their new circumstances will have got one by now.

MN is usually very sensible about how to find a good breeder. And always says to avoid Pets4Home, as amonst the good breeders, there are many iffy ones.

Puppies should not be sold before 8 weeks and change in eye colour should be well under way by then. I doubt it's the breeder who does not know about puppy eye colour - if blue eyes are being billed as a premium feature (or if merle is) then it may be one to avoid.

I agree with a lot of what's been said, but...

It's not so easy as just 'stopping breeding for a few years.' The breed I own isn't mentally mature until two or three. The latest age for a first litter is generally reckoned to be five. So you only have a couple of years in which to breed a first litter from a maiden bitch.

I have an intact bitch. I was considering breeding her but for various reasons (nothing to do with the insane puppy market) I decided against and I'm waiting now to have her spayed. However, if I had decided to breed her, it would have had to be this year or, at the absolute latest, with an increased risk to her and any litter she had, next year.

Then I'd have had the worry of finding good homes for the puppies. I'd have kept one (that would have been the main impulse behind the breeding). If any had gone to people I knew, they'd have gone for something close to pre-lockdown prices. The others? It would have been a tough call, because I would not have wanted to sell a puppy for a grand, only to have the new owner sell it on for an immediate profit to someone I did not know. I would have vetted purchasers, but I know enough, from people I know who breed, that this isn't foolproof.

So as a first-time breeder, who had had her bitch hip-scored and used a health-tested stud, I bloody well hope I wouldn't have been labelled a 'greeder' because of when I'd bred a bitch I'd been considering breeding since she was a puppy.

I suppose that what I'm saying is that while a lot of people are cashing in on the family pet, not everyone currently advertising puppies is doing that.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I get your points but I’m still yet to meet a single first time breeder with a family pet they want a litter from who is doing it for the right reasons.

It’s nearly always ‘oh she is the best dog in the world, so the world needs more like her. And as luck would have it, she also happens to have a good hip score’
Or variations of that. Same with people who want to stud their dog. It’s always because he is ‘so handsome’ or ‘such a good boy’.

I have working labs, which I work, and when I choose a breeder for my pups, and ask why they are using that pair for the litter, I have never once been told it’s because either are handsome or ‘lovely’ or ‘good dogs’

Quite a few breeders are stopping breeding for now because they feel the increased prices they're having to charge to stop profiteering are unjustified so there are some decent breeders out there.

Others are being so, so careful in their selection process to try and weed out the potential resellers.

Pets4homes though has always had ridiculous prices for pets. Go via the Kennel Club or there's another website where registered breeders advertise (sorry - can't for the life of me remember the name). My DM recently got a new puppy for a much more reasonable price than listed on pets4homes. It took her about 6 months to even get on someone's list but in the end she'd clearly been so keen and is very experienced with the particular breed that her name became known to breeders and eventually her name was passed around between them all as someone that would make a good owner.

I think her showing she was willing to be patient was what won the breeders over.

As for the current price problem. I agree with everything that's been said. 12 months from now the rescue centres are going to be full of overexcited, undertrained puppies that are going to be a nightmare.

A lot of the breeders and rescues we spoke to when DM was looking were very, very worried.

Poor doggies ☹️

@BiteyShark

It's not the price that astounds me as its supply and demand (and lots of items other than pets are selling at record prices).

It's the fact that some people will happily pay those prices but won't for ongoing care like insurance, dog walking or daycare.

As a dog walker I get so many people telling me my prices are "outrageous" and that they won't pay them

It's like they think the only cost of a dog is the initial purchase. I'm often told that it's "ridiculous" to charge more than minimum wage for dog care - ignoring the fact that I'm self employed and have to pay for everything from transport to poo bags to treats to insurance out of my hourly rate

But yeah, at £10 an hour I'm raking it in

The problem is if this is what dogs cost and you want a dog, then what do you do? It’s like houses. I bought my first house in 2005 for £99,000. Just three years earlier it was £38,000. It stings but what can do you, rent until prices come down (they didn’t) or just accept that’s what they’re worth now.

GappyValley I might be that person

I have a vulnerable native breed and I think it would be a shame to see dwindle and disappear. My DDog comes from a maternal line which has extremely good temperament (I know several generations, as there is a breed enthusiast in the family)

We have still not made the final decision, but if we do have a litter (and it’s likely to be just the one) it will be the season after she is two, after health testing and with careful selection of stud dog (health and COI)

I haven’t thought about pricing (too far in the future) but have looked to see the going rate and failed to establish it for this breed as the last litter advertised on line was in 2017

Completely agree with you. I had a long convo with a achool mum in the park why I thought a cockapoo was a bad idea. Her argument was her friends 8 year old cockapoo was lovely. I explained how £3k for a crossbreed is utterly bonkers and she agreed in the end. Saw her yesterday and she did buy one, and she's having no end of problems. I literally rolled my eyes.

One of the df's at our school openly admits he buys a bitch, breeds her then sells her on. Buys a different breed, breeds her, sells her on.. Was very smug he did fine during last year's lockdown.. Felt quite sick tbh. He knows to avoid me now as I walked away from him...

i wonder how much of the profit of these litters is declared?

a friend bred her lab. 9 puppies @ £1500 each. that's a huge amount of money, which i KNOW she didn't tell HMRC about

I agree that the current situation is crazy as well as unsustainable. But if you were selling/homing a litter of puppies, why would you charge less than the going rate? That would be daft. Also it would not necessarily mean that the pups went to 'better' homes.

I would take the prices advertised on Pets4Homes with a pinch of salt. Just because a pup/litter is advertised for £xxxx, does not mean that they will get that amount, and as previously mentioned, some 'Greeders' are obviously trying it on. There have always been individual dogs with particularly 'desirable' characteristics that have commanded high prices.

It is worrying about future welfare issues, and also that people will buy a female pup hoping to cash in on their investment when that might not be the case. I predict big demand for groomers/dog walkers/trainers and behaviourists. Getting an appointment with your vet will be more challenging too.

I agree that prices are ridiculous but I can sort of understand why people buy anyway. It must be very hard if you want a dog at the moment-a friend’s old dog died last year and they have been looking for a new one for a while. They have cats and children so rescuing is unlikely to be an option and all the rescues don’t seem to have many dogs and any suitable ones have hundreds of applications (so you’re not really “rescuing” them from anything anyway!). Many responsible breeders either aren’t breeding or have waiting lists that are years long-there just isn’t enough responsibly bred dogs to meet the demand. They are planning to wait longer and hope that more ‘lockdown puppies’ end up in rescue in the coming months/keep looking for a good breeder. But they have accepted that it may be years before they get a dog and I can see that there is a temptation to just pay the money to someone on pets4homes and get a dog sooner.
What annoys me is supposedly responsible breeders claiming that they “have to” charge double or triple their previous price to avoid reselling/make sure the dogs go to responsible owners. I don’t think that’s true-I think a good breeder could quite easily tell who would be a genuine good home based on their knowledge/research of the breed and if they’re prepared to be on a waiting list for months. I’m sure if breeders were able to appropriately vet owners before the pandemic they can do it now without charging silly money. If a breeder is claiming to be responsible and thinks that they simply must charge the new higher price to prevent reselling-surely they could make the owners donate the money to an animal charity instead? Or just admit that they are taking advantage of the situation and it’s nice they are making some extra cash from breeding. I’ve seen a few people claiming that they didn’t want to increase their prices by £1000 but they “had to” making out like it was a a big animal welfare decision when they’re clearly just raking it in. I never used to begrudge people making a bit of profit from breeding if done responsibly/for health/temperament/health tested but people are definitely taking the piss now while still claiming to not be in it for the money. These people almost annoy me more than those that are blatantly in it for the money/admit it.

@Handsnotwands

i wonder how much of the profit of these litters is declared?

a friend bred her lab. 9 puppies @ £1500 each. that's a huge amount of money, which i KNOW she didn't tell HMRC about

I know! They really need to change the licensing laws. Apparently you only need a licence to breed if it’s 3 or more litters a year or you are “in the business” of dog breeding. How can making £15000 not count as being a business? Yet no one checks how much breeders are making and your friend would count as a hobby breeder so wouldn’t need a licence or to declare income

@bunniesanddaisies

The problem is if this is what dogs cost and you want a dog, then what do you do? It’s like houses. I bought my first house in 2005 for £99,000. Just three years earlier it was £38,000. It stings but what can do you, rent until prices come down (they didn’t) or just accept that’s what they’re worth now.

But a dog isn't a necessity in the way a home is, is it? It's a want. And not a cheap one.

If people are happy to pay 5k+ for a puppy then that's their lookout, but they also need to be prepared for the ongoing costs like vet care, insurance, and, if necessary, dog walkers and daycare to ensure their pets are well looked after.

Too many people aren't happy to pay the ongoing costs.