Let's discuss dog prices

[Blueberrymuffin40]

Been trawling Pets4Homes have just seen dogs advertised for over 12000!!
I can't believe people would pay that for a dog.
The excuse doing the rounds since lockdown 'we've had to put the prices up so people don't sell on' we'll I'm sorry but if that was the case you'd stop breeding until lockdown is over. The real truth is you've bred for the thousands of pounds you can get.... FACT.
Dog theft has risen because of these breeders charging thousands so breeders are putting dogs at risk don't tell me they care about the puppies they breed they breed for the £££££££'s they can get.
Good breeders are in the minority.

It is a case of market forces I'm afraid. What is sickening is that I live in a rural area and people are being robbed in daylight and their dogs stolen. Just incredible really

@bunniesanddaisies

Glad to hear that saucery

Rescue is a good option for some but tbh MN has been anticipating rescues being full to bursting with ‘lockdown puppies’ since the start of the pandemic and tbh I don’t think it will happen. I think people are far more likely to re-sell on gumtree and the like.

At the moment this is what dogs are worth. I don’t have an issue with it tbh and I’m not sure why anybody does. Things go up in price according to demand. That’s the way of the world.

I agree about the rescues being empty.

I have an issue with dogs now being worth a huge amount of money because it’s led to an increase in dog thefts and worry about dog thefts and it encourages irresponsible breeding which harms animal welfare. People with no interest in animal welfare or knowledge of dogs are breeding from unhealthy poor tempered dogs because they can make up to about £30k from a litter which is a huge sum of money for very little effort (and no tax). This then encourages them to breed the dog many times, and if the pups are not KC registered then no one will know how many litters the bitch has had. Many dogs in puppy farms and with backyard breeders are suffering because dogs are worth so much. And many puppies with health and behaviour issues are being born and will be transferred from home to home throughout their lives and will likely end up so stressed they bite someone and could be euthanised.
People accepting that this is the going rate for dogs and just paying £3k so they can get a cute puppy immediately are creating the demand and contributing to animals suffering.
I know that people love having a dog and want one immediately, especially when WFH is a good time to get one, but I wish people prioritised getting an ethically bred dog (anyone charging £3k is not ethical in my opinion). I know that rescues don’t have many dogs and ethical breeders may not be breeding at all or have long waiting lists, but I think safeguarding animal welfare and not giving money to unscrupulous breeders is worth waiting and not having a dog for a while.

The cost of dogs is crazy, also the costs in homing from a rescue centre.
Vets and insurance prices have risen dramatically.
People are being priced out of dogs, including me.
We are not going to have any more dogs.

I do agree, LeopardSheet but without strict legislation the unethical breeding is going to continue.
There’s zero political interest or will to change things so all responsible owners can do is make sure they do their research.
I don’t have a problem with dogs costing £2,000 though. In an ideal world they would cost that, but only available from registered breeders (properly registered for animal welfare, not just KC) and full insurance compulsory. Yearly licence at a rate that was meaningful too, with the money put towards dog wardens etc.

I think people who want a family pet can’t be held responsible for criminals, though.

Greeders...just about sums up these money grabbing people who use their dogs as cash cows !!
They are the reason why dog theft is a huge issue where I live. A litter of puppies or an intact bitch is worth thousands and the buyers are fuelling this greed !!
In the perfect world there would be a price cap on the sale of puppies.

@Saucery

I do agree, LeopardSheet but without strict legislation the unethical breeding is going to continue. There’s zero political interest or will to change things so all responsible owners can do is make sure they do their research. I don’t have a problem with dogs costing £2,000 though. In an ideal world they would cost that, but only available from registered breeders (properly registered for animal welfare, not just KC) and full insurance compulsory. Yearly licence at a rate that was meaningful too, with the money put towards dog wardens etc.

Yes a lot of it is idealistic and things probably won’t change. I think it’s fascinating how many people love their dogs like their children but never even think about where it came from/where the dogs mother is now (potentially suffering in a puppy farm). I think there is some hope for change. For work, I watched an interesting webinar from the head vet at the Animal Welfare Foundation (org that made the puppy contract). They are in talks with the government as the Lucy’s law legislation is up for review soon-they are hoping that this legislation will be tightened up so that every breeder/even one off litters have to be registered (not licensed though). This would help keep track of things a bit hopefully. Apparently, for all the Tory govts flaws, the PM is actually quite interested in improving animal welfare laws (probably influenced by Carrie Symonds).

I actually don't mind paying for the right dog, from the right breeder. Genetic testing, importing semen, medical care during pregnancy, etc, is all expensive. It also gets a lot more expensive as more tests become available. Raising puppies is a lot of hard work, and I think a good breeder should also be compensated for that.

@bunniesanddaisies

I think people who want a family pet can’t be held responsible for criminals, though.

I guess it depends on personal ethics. I think they are not entirely responsible but they are creating the demand for an unethical illegal industry. Like people who buy illegal drugs fund organised crime. Or how eating fish contributes to plastic in the oceans/eating low welfare meat leads to animals suffering and increased greenhouse gasses etc. Each person’s individual actions won’t contribute much but if lots of people try to be responsible it will hopefully make a difference.

No ones perfect though and I eat meat and fish knowing that these industries can be very harmful. I can totally see the temptation to buy an unethically bred dog and I wouldn’t think anyone was a bad person for doing it.

My parents just bred their golden retriever, all 9 pups sold for £3.5k each. I felt sick hearing that

@SelkieQualia

I actually don't mind paying for the right dog, from the right breeder. Genetic testing, importing semen, medical care during pregnancy, etc, is all expensive. It also gets a lot more expensive as more tests become available. Raising puppies is a lot of hard work, and I think a good breeder should also be compensated for that.

I would have agreed with this before lockdown. I agree that responsible breeding is a skill and takes time and effort which should be compensated, and the overheads of tests etc can be high. However, the overheads have not increased since the pandemic, and breeders have put no more time and effort into breeding than before so I don’t know how they can justify doubling their prices (profit). The only thing that has changed is the demand, so I think they are just taking advantage of the situation which I think is understandable but unethical. Responsible breeders charging high prices also means that irresponsible breeders can charge the same high price with none of the overheads of tests/a good stud etc as the average puppy buyer doesn’t know the difference between a well bred or poorly bred puppy. This encourages puppy farms and bad breeding.

I'm curious how it will all pan out.
In a parallel universe I would definitely have a dog(s), and it would have to be a rescue, ideally a total mongrel but personality counts more than breed.

This might be a UK-specific problem, although prices are high in USA there are still plenty of animals in their shelters, too.

I wonder if, in spite of these crazy prices, will there be animals back filling British rescues in 3 or 4 years. This still surprises me, because If I paid even £500 (never mind £1k-£3k) for a dog then I would be extra motivated to move Heaven and Earth to give it a successful forever home with me.

I was reading through this thread to see what prices people thought was shocking. My friend recently sold a litter of labradoodles, her first and hopefully last. My parents are looking for a 2nd dog and were shocked at prices during covid. She wanted £5k per puppy! With a small discount for friends! She did sell them all in the end but I felt she was only doing this to profit from the increased demand for puppies and the high price she could ask for!

Does it honestly shock people?

Breeders are a business. Sure they might breed ‘to improve the standards of the breed’ but that in itself is misleading. The world won’t end because a particular breed of dog isn’t what someone deemed it should be.

It’s OK to be passionate about that. An ethical nappy company might be passionate about reusable nappies but they won’t give nappies away and if reusable nappies became a Thing they’d jump on the back of that. Breeders are no different. They’ve always bred for profit. It’s just now profits have increased a lot.

@sunflowersandbuttercups Come on - unless it's a guide, therapy or working dog, it's not a necessity, is it? It's a want. There's nothing wrong with really wanting a dog, but let's not dress it up as something it's not
For someone who works with dogs, you seem to have some naivety about their role in many peoples lives. Sure, you won't die from the lack of a dog. You won't die from the lack of owning a house, having children, or anything else. By your definition, nothing is a necessity except for, water and warmth (but only on the coldest days, mind). Whilst I have little disagreement about the points raised about irresponsible breeding and ownership (although I do find it amusing how people are snobbishly supportive of the Kennel Club, an institution largely responsible for some of the most irresponsible breeding over two centuries) the fact is that dogs have a relationship with humans that few other species can aspire to. The physiological response between humans and dogs has a positive impact on both species. And there will be many people who depended on their dog, often as the only real friendship or family they had even before the pandemic. I don't think it's up to anyone to decide what is or isn't someone else's necessity. My children are in the USA. I have no contact with either brother or sister, but even if I did, the nearest of them is over 200 miles away. My friends are scattered across the world. There have been many weeks over the last year when the only living, breathing creature I have seen is my dog. So please don't assume that you know what a necessity is.

Rescues, particularly breed specific ones, aren’t seeing a huge turnover of dogs. The ones they get usually have issues that need to be carefully handled, which isn’t a massive problem to us as we have experience of the breed we favour. 18 months we waited, and waited and waited.

Yes, we've been looking for a rescue since January with no joy. Despite being a household with 2 adults full time at home (pre-dating pandemic), no children, no other pets, large enclosed garden. I never really particularly wanted a pedigree pup but as the rescue route wasn't working it seemed the second best option. We've gone on a list with a breeder who has been recommended by a friend, working parents with good health tests. It's likely to cost us more money than if we waited another year, but in the grand scheme of dog related costs over its lifetime it's a fairly small amount.

Until idiots stop paying those prices then breeders will carry on breeding. Its about time the local councils made all breeders be registered. Its all about money and so many of these dogs end up in rescues.

They do, do they

Due to the rapidly increasing availability of health testing, actually, overheads have increased. Those tests are expensive! And I don't think many good breeders did make much money, not for the effort involved, until now.

Breeders are a business
I don't 100% agree. I know too many who breed mostly or entirely to continue their own line. One of them honestly does not need the money, and could breed and sell more litters than she chooses to. Another one is in a very standard job but spends way more than he has to (that is, cuts massively into his profit) because he imports dogs, takes bitches abroad for mating and so on. He has a stud dog in high demand, but is picky about studding him out (cutting into his profits again).

Some people, no question, have an eye always on the bottom line and sod the welfare of the dogs and puppies, and the outcomes for the new owners. Others are much more conscientious and while they must make some profit, are motivated primarily by other considerations.

@SelkieQualia

Due to the rapidly increasing availability of health testing, actually, overheads have increased. Those tests are expensive! And I don't think many good breeders did make much money, not for the effort involved, until now.

I really don’t think that prices doubling as soon as the pandemic hit can be attributed to increased availability of health tests. Most of the dogs sold for ££££ by “breeders” on pets4homes are not health tested (most buyers and breeders probably don’t know health tests even exist). Even established supposedly responsible breeders can’t justify doubling their prices due to more health tests-it’s not like a load of new expensive tests suddenly became available in March 2020. It annoys me when breeders have doubled their prices yet still want to be seen as responsible. I’m in a breed group on Facebook and saw one breeder post that she “didn’t want” to double her prices but was “forced to” to avoid puppies being resold which I (and many breeders on the group) thought was bullshit. No one was forcing her to make thousands of pounds of profit. If she was that concerned about buyers reselling she should vet owners more carefully or if she felt she had to increase the price, she could give the difference to charity if she truly wasn’t motivated by making more money. I wouldn’t mind as much if established “responsible” breeders just admitted that it was nice they can charge so much more/make a lot of money from breeding now/admit they are taking advantage from the situation. It’s the fact that they still want to be seen as responsible and not motivated by money that annoys me. I think it annoys many genuinely responsible breeders too, who have kept their prices at pre covid levels to avoid ripping people off and maintain their reputation and because they genuinely aren’t out to make lots of money from their animals.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I agree with a lot of what's been said, but...

It's not so easy as just 'stopping breeding for a few years.' The breed I own isn't mentally mature until two or three. The latest age for a first litter is generally reckoned to be five. So you only have a couple of years in which to breed a first litter from a maiden bitch.

I have an intact bitch. I was considering breeding her but for various reasons (nothing to do with the insane puppy market) I decided against and I'm waiting now to have her spayed. However, if I had decided to breed her, it would have had to be this year or, at the absolute latest, with an increased risk to her and any litter she had, next year.

Then I'd have had the worry of finding good homes for the puppies. I'd have kept one (that would have been the main impulse behind the breeding). If any had gone to people I knew, they'd have gone for something close to pre-lockdown prices. The others? It would have been a tough call, because I would not have wanted to sell a puppy for a grand, only to have the new owner sell it on for an immediate profit to someone I did not know. I would have vetted purchasers, but I know enough, from people I know who breed, that this isn't foolproof.

So as a first-time breeder, who had had her bitch hip-scored and used a health-tested stud, I bloody well hope I wouldn't have been labelled a 'greeder' because of when I'd bred a bitch I'd been considering breeding since she was a puppy.

I suppose that what I'm saying is that while a lot of people are cashing in on the family pet, not everyone currently advertising puppies is doing that.

Easy, don't breed her

Why would you want to?

What would be your motivation?

@Outbutnotoutout I think you might have quoted the wrong post as you don't appear to have read mine.

I say in it that I'm not breeding my bitch.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

Breeders are a business I don't 100% agree. I know too many who breed mostly or entirely to continue their own line. One of them honestly does not need the money, and could breed and sell more litters than she chooses to. Another one is in a very standard job but spends way more than he has to (that is, cuts massively into his profit) because he imports dogs, takes bitches abroad for mating and so on. He has a stud dog in high demand, but is picky about studding him out (cutting into his profits again).

Some people, no question, have an eye always on the bottom line and sod the welfare of the dogs and puppies, and the outcomes for the new owners. Others are much more conscientious and while they must make some profit, are motivated primarily by other considerations.

But if you are maintaining standards, breeding for good health and temperament, and doing all the testing, what's wrong with making a profit?

I live in Wales and, whilst by no means perfect, think the registered breeder scheme here is a step in the right direction. My puppy came from a registered breeder and they had a socialisation and enrichment plan for both mum and pup. Health checks and scores for both parents etc. She's been the easiest puppy (now 16 months) and is very secure and content. Sadly her sister had a heart condition that was discovered at birth so mum is now spayed and having a fantastic retirement.

As I said, it needs to be strengthened and doesn't apply to every breeder but it's a good start. I'd love to see it extended across the uk with even stronger conditions and regular checks by authorities that are fully funded by the scheme. But then I'd like to see a lot of the legislation about how pets are treated strengthened too.