Let's discuss dog prices

[Blueberrymuffin40]

Been trawling Pets4Homes have just seen dogs advertised for over 12000!!
I can't believe people would pay that for a dog.
The excuse doing the rounds since lockdown 'we've had to put the prices up so people don't sell on' we'll I'm sorry but if that was the case you'd stop breeding until lockdown is over. The real truth is you've bred for the thousands of pounds you can get.... FACT.
Dog theft has risen because of these breeders charging thousands so breeders are putting dogs at risk don't tell me they care about the puppies they breed they breed for the £££££££'s they can get.
Good breeders are in the minority.

I don’t disagree with that sunflowers but a dog sort of is a necessity to some people. OK not like a home but still!

You could argue the other way. Why have dogs been so cheap to purchase before. A few hundred pounds is nothing and doesn't value a living breathing animal very highly.

I've started to hear more of pups still available, so it seems to be starting to plateau.
Our pup was one of 3 that survived because the dam had complications and needed a c Section. Both hip scored kc registered health checked etc so I can't imagine there was huge profit there.

@BiteyShark

You could argue the other way. Why have dogs been so cheap to purchase before. A few hundred pounds is nothing and doesn't value a living breathing animal very highly.

True, dogs are worth a lot more than any price tag. But I think all charging more for them does is encourage people to breed irresponsibly. If you couldn’t make any money from breeding then there would be far fewer bad breeders and puppy farms wouldn’t exist. I do think that responsible breeding takes time, effort and has quite high overheads so a fairly high price is reasonable but making a huge profit from an animal seems unnecessary and unfair. I think it’s a shame that since responsible breeders put in time and pay for health tests they can justify charging a high price, this then makes people think that any puppy should cost this much. So people can charge the same price when they breed their untested family pet without putting in any effort or having any expertise. I think that KC registered health tested dogs from exert breeders should cost more and family pet puppies should be way cheaper (just to cover costs of raising the pups/discourage them being bait dogs £300 say). But this will obviously never happen

@bunniesanddaisies

I don’t disagree with that sunflowers but a dog sort of is a necessity to some people. OK not like a home but still!

Come on - unless it's a guide, therapy or working dog, it's not a necessity, is it? It's a want. There's nothing wrong with really wanting a dog, but let's not dress it up as something it's not.

And I say that as a dog walker, so I make my living out of the fact that other people own dogs. Dogs are a nice thing to have and a great source of companionship and support for a lot of people, but it's really not a necessity.

[quote GappyValley]@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I get your points but I’m still yet to meet a single first time breeder with a family pet they want a litter from who is doing it for the right reasons.

It’s nearly always ‘oh she is the best dog in the world, so the world needs more like her. And as luck would have it, she also happens to have a good hip score’
Or variations of that. Same with people who want to stud their dog. It’s always because he is ‘so handsome’ or ‘such a good boy’.

I have working labs, which I work, and when I choose a breeder for my pups, and ask why they are using that pair for the litter, I have never once been told it’s because either are handsome or ‘lovely’ or ‘good dogs’[/quote]
I think we're mostly seeing this the same way, but it depends on how you define 'the right reasons'. One reason I won't be breeding my bitch is that I haven't managed to get her into work - my fault, from lack of time and inefficient training - and I wouldn't breed a bitch from working lines unless she was a proven worker.

On the other hand, the vast majority of dogs today are pets. If someone owns a dog with a great pet temperament, good hips, a level bite, decent confirmation and good general health, is willing to to learn about stuff like COI, would expect either sire or dam to be tested for any recessive nasties, has someone they can turn to for advice and has a financial buffer if the bitch needs a section or whatever, I think that's okay. I've had two friends who've done this, both of them to keep a puppy. They make for a much better source of puppies than puppy farms.

And they also help to keep the gene-pool nice and wide: they're not bothered if their dog has the current show-winning tail set or flashy gait, and they won't be falling over themselves to be the 50th person to mate that ShCh stud to their bitch.

Out of curiosity why is breeding because your dog is "lovely" (i.e. good temperament) and happens to be healthy not a good enough reason for breeding?

@XelaM

Out of curiosity why is breeding because your dog is "lovely" (i.e. good temperament) and happens to be healthy not a good enough reason for breeding?

What do you mean by healthy?

A vet giving your dog the "all-clear" isn't the same as both the sire and the dam having had all the relevant health tests for the breed - hip, eye and elbow scores etc.

@sunflowersandbuttercups I was asking about what @GappyValley said. I thought she said the dogs were hip-tested etc, but that the reasons for breeding lovely family pets aren't good enough?

@XelaM

Out of curiosity why is breeding because your dog is "lovely" (i.e. good temperament) and happens to be healthy not a good enough reason for breeding?

Because every dog owner in the UK thinks there dog is ‘the best dog’ or ‘one in a million’ or ‘has a perfect temperament’

My rough estimate is that 95% of those people are hugely overstating how lovely their dog is. I’ve lost count of how many times someone has told me about their lovely perfect dog only for a lumbering dog to jump up at me and try and snatch treats from me

Very very few people are training their dogs to a high enough level to be able to tell the difference between a dog with genuine trainable temperaments, and those that will sit on command and have a scratchy recall when they’ve got treats in their pocket.

When you’re training your dog to 3/10 difficultly, you have no idea if that dog is intelligent and capable enough to be 9/10 or 3/10, and lots of 3/10 intelligence dogs running around isn’t a great idea for anyone

In my not very scientific experience, roughly in a litter of 8, you get 2 a over average pups, 2 below average and 4 about the same as their parents.

So churn out lots of 3/10 parented litters will produce far more 1/10 intelligence dogs than I feel happy about.

@GappyValley I get your point that people may breed from dogs they think are lovely but have undesirable traits that they may pass onto puppies which could lead to these puppies ending up in rescue.
But I don’t think lack of intelligence in pet dogs is necessarily a bad thing-it could be a good thing as many pet homes can’t offer the stimulation very intelligent dogs need.
I think if both parents are generally good family pets and are hip scored, eye tested and have any other relevant dna tests done then puppies will likely also be healthy family pets. I definitely don’t think breeding for show is always better than breeding to produce happy healthy family pets.

[quote LeopardSheet]@GappyValley I get your point that people may breed from dogs they think are lovely but have undesirable traits that they may pass onto puppies which could lead to these puppies ending up in rescue.
But I don’t think lack of intelligence in pet dogs is necessarily a bad thing-it could be a good thing as many pet homes can’t offer the stimulation very intelligent dogs need.
I think if both parents are generally good family pets and are hip scored, eye tested and have any other relevant dna tests done then puppies will likely also be healthy family pets. I definitely don’t think breeding for show is always better than breeding to produce happy healthy family pets.[/quote]
It’s not can-this-do-BGT-tricks sort of intelligence

It’s impulse control that translates into how likely a dog is to snap, steal from a picnic, scavenge
It’s biddability that is how good that dog’s recall will be
It’s anxiety that means a dog won’t get separation anxiety, fear aggression, being scared of fireworks

If dogs are mollycoddled family pets who aren’t trained, do they scavenge because they aren’t trained or because they aren’t capable of being trained due to lack of impulse control?

And if it’s the latter, those dogs simply shouldn’t be bred from - if nothing else, angsty bitches are usually terrible mums who create angsty pups

‘Nice temperament’ is just too vague and too subjective to be good enough grounds to churn out litters

Our breeder kept her prices of a pedigree at pre Covid levels of £1,200. I think we were very lucky but there are some good ones out there!

@GappyValley I get the point about intelligence - a good family pet, for a busy family, is bright and biddable but low in drive. Personally I prefer high-drive dogs who need some input and with whom you can do fun stuff like memory retrieves, but not everybody wants or can cope with that kind of dog (and I can 100% see why).

TBH, though, I'm not sure how much training many show dogs get. They need to be fairly confident to handle the show ring (though you do get nervy dogs there) and probably able to manage a sit-stay, but beyond that... Dunno.

Of the three pets who I was referencing above, two were very well-trained dogs (can't speak for the third when out, other than decent recall, but she is delightful and well-mannered in the house).

So maybe I should add to that list of what makes a decent pet breeder, the parent dogs being demonstrably trainable (Canine Good Citizen, maybe?)

@LEMtheoriginal

Omg!! "GREEDERS" that is absolutely the best term ever! Usually would descrube the backyard breeder of "breeds" with APOO on the end of their made up name. The average price of one of these crossbreeds is about £1500 -£2000 and people readily pay this . Im a veterinary nurse and I judge these greeders pretty strongly. They claim to love their dogs but they are quite happy to put their bitches through a potentially life threatening pregnancy (rare but complications happen), stress, so they can make money. They tell me "oh but shes so lovely, i just want a litter of puppies to carry on her line" fuck off, your using your "pet" as a cash cow stop pretending otherwise.

I'm a vet nurse too and i completely agree ! in fact all my colleagues feel the same . We cannot believe what we are seeing and what people are paying , absolute greed and madness . Poor specimens that present with problems , sad little souls that may end up with a lifetime of issues . Of course we have compassion for the pup but none for the buyer who had to have a puppy NOW ! When are people going to wake up and learn that they are fuelling all this greed and irresponsibility. Cynical laugh at the ending in APOO , my contribution FRENCHIE ,the 2 that we see every single day , and i would be rich if I'd had a pound for every time a GREEDER told me how much they love their doggie , and don't get me started on the ones who can't afford the caesarean / vets bill when things go wrong.

I'm paying 3k for my pup but that's after looking at several breeders all charging the same. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@toadstool32 if you give it six months youll be able to pick up a similar puppy/dog in the rescue for the price of a donation. Can you not see you are part of the problem?

Im sorry to be blunt but unless you are buying a pedigree from a line of crifts winners you are being ripped off. These people are charging this money because they can!

I see the results, overbred bitches and puppies of questionable heritage, often highly anxious bitey dogs who have owners that whislt they live their puppies are pretty bloody clueless. Then when the dog is too much they end up in the rescue.

So its not really a case of 🤷🏼‍♀️ you have a choice!

Oh give over LEM

Wow. @LEMtheoriginal perhaps some people are paying £3000 exactly because they are buying pedigree bred dogs which can trace back 20 generations?

We bought a puppy as rescues said they wouldn't let us have a rescue (kids & issues with our garden).

We've had dogs before, with our kids and our (enormous) garden. But all the rescues said no, so we bought a puppy.

Sorry that was rude of me. Let me elaborate.

I have advance searched toadstool (apologies.)

She works part time and she has a primary school aged child. It is unlikely a dog will be rehomed to her.

@bunniesanddaisies yes we were basically told we were an inappropriate home for a dog.
Which considering how many years we have had dogs was a surprise. We had planned to get a rescue as we understood how many dogs need homes, but ended up buying a puppy as the only way. (Which we have done before).

Rescues, particularly breed specific ones, aren’t seeing a huge turnover of dogs. The ones they get usually have issues that need to be carefully handled, which isn’t a massive problem to us as we have experience of the breed we favour. 18 months we waited, and waited and waited. What dogs they did get were rehomed on the basis of ‘bereavement’ (which also applied to us) and dog after dog popped up on their FB group. Dogs that were never mentioned on the rehoming site, given to some hidden waiting list.
So we searched for a breeder through personal recommendation and researching past litters etc. and paid the current going rate. This dog will have as active and fulfilling a life as our last dog. They aren’t our ‘fur babies’, but they are a valuable canine member of our family.
I wish we could have given a rescue dog of the breed a good home but if rehoming goes to some arbitrary underground method and you never get a reply to enquiries about dogs then how long do you wait? Well, 18 months was our limit. I would wait a long time for my chosen breeder to have a litter available, but I wasn’t hanging on for a rescue that might never have turned up.

Actually, we waited longer than 18 months, as we applied when our previous dog was 9. This did put extra conditions on the type of rescue we could have, of course, but in total we were accepted and checked for 4 and a half years.
Still support the rescue financially, but I won’t be applying again.

Glad to hear that saucery

Rescue is a good option for some but tbh MN has been anticipating rescues being full to bursting with ‘lockdown puppies’ since the start of the pandemic and tbh I don’t think it will happen. I think people are far more likely to re-sell on gumtree and the like.

At the moment this is what dogs are worth. I don’t have an issue with it tbh and I’m not sure why anybody does. Things go up in price according to demand. That’s the way of the world.

@toadstool32 is the puppy at least health tested and KC registered/from an experienced breeder?

I’ve heard that really responsible breeders who are truly doing it for the passion of the breed not looking to make money haven’t raised their prices to the £3k mark. So you may actually save some money and get a healthier dog if you find a breeder who is less money grabbing (which I’m sorry but there’s really no other word for someone who is charging £3k for a puppy when their overheads haven’t increased at all/just because they can take advantage).
It’d probably be a long wait though so depends if you “need” the puppy now or are able to wait until you can find a more reasonable breeder.