Another breed help question, sorry!

[Letmeout21]

I have posted before but can’t find it. I’ve been researching breeds for over a year now so feel like I’m well prepared.
I’m actually waiting for confirmation from landlord (council) that we’re allowed a dog so still nothings concrete. I might be allowed based on children’s mental health needs.
Narrowed it down to:
Cavalier (health issues I know)
Cavapoo
Shih tzu
Westie
Open to suggestions. Not a rescue.
Kids are 8 and 15. Generally my household is pretty calm but youngest can be quite energetic and loud at times. Would be great company for a dog that loves to run around a park. Oldest would like a cuddle buddy.
On an average day probably an 60 mins walks a day split between 3 walks (2 short ones). More at weekends. I guess realistically we need a lower energy breed as we wouldn’t meet high exercise needs in the week but I wouldn’t want a dog that isn’t able to cope with a couple of hours round a park. This is what’s worrying me about a shih tzu.
I love westies but I don’t have much experience of terriers.

Any first hand experience of these breeds? What they’re like with children? Exercise needs?

I would swap the westie for a cairn.
They are basically the exact same dog just a different colour but the Cairns are (imo) a little healthier than the westies

Absolutely a cairn! Best dogs ever. Mine is currently snoring on my lap after a 10k walk.

During the week he is perfectly content with 15 minutes in the morning and 30 in the evening.

He's my third and they have all been brilliant.

They are however terriers. They have their own mind. Recall is fab most of the time but if something takes his fancy he's off and comes back when he's ready. They can be diggers.

Incredibly loyal and loves my kids they've grown up together and if we're out he will not let them out of his sight.

Cuddle buddy - St Bernards are great at this 😂

Will look at cairns thanks

Minature schnauzers would also tick lots of boxes of it wasn’t for the barking. That could cause a problem for neighbours.

What about a Bichon Frise? Yes, it needs grooming, but they are great companion dogs and up for action.

Westies IME are prone to skin issues. And they yap.

A lot.

Can you tell we live near some?

Another vote for a Cairn terrier - fantastic little dogs.

The only downsides are that they're diggers (the one I walk digs every time she pees or poos - the owner now has artificial grass!) and her bark is quite high pitched, though she's easily trained to be quiet.

As for the others on your list:

Cavalier - far too many health issues. Finding a good breeder is next to impossible at the moment.
Cavapoo - far too likely to be puppy-farmed, and you're very unlikely to find one with health-tested parents etc.
Shih tzu - lovely little dogs though they do require frequent grooming and brushing to avoid the matts.
Westie - prone to skin issues sadly - like PP said apart from that, they're very similar to cairns.

In conclusion - get a Cairn terrier

I agree that a mini schnauzer is probably a no go because of the barking

Same for cavaliers because of the health issues which is such a shame as they would be perfect.

I haven’t known any westies since a child but do have a real soft spot for them. I’ve read about the allergy issues though, not sure if that’s bad enough not to get one.

Shih tzus sound pretty great but I’m worried they can’t handle longer walks and I’ve read tbey can be temperamental. But they sound a good match. Would keep the hair trimmed shortish.

Cavapoos sound pretty great in terms of energy levels and personality and would hopefully have some of the cavalier traits without the health issues. I agree it’d be hard to find one with health tested parents though.

I need to research cairns more. If discounted them before and can’t remember why. I think they’re hard to find too? So are westies actually.

Another option is a shih tzu/poodle mix. They seem a little hardier than pedigree poodles. I know people hate the poodle mixes on here though.

“Shih tzus sound pretty great but I’m worried they can’t handle longer walks”

Not a breed I’d have because I don’t go for breeds bred into a shape where they can’t breathe properly... but, if you find one without breathing issues - there’s no reason at all they can’t do longer walks.

The amount of exercise you’ll find recommended for breeds is the bare minimum, not what they’re actually capable of doing.

Another option is a shih tzu/poodle mix. They seem a little hardier than pedigree poodles. I know people hate the poodle mixes on here though.

It's not that people hate the mixes, it's that it's nearly impossible to find one from a decent breeder. Sadly, there are far, far too many puppies out there from backyard breeders and puppy farms.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel poodles aren't hardy dogs? They're originally bred as working dogs and are generally extremely fit and healthy. Their coats do require a fair bit of attention but the same goes for any poodle mix on your list.

Assuming you're able to proceed, the first thing you need to do is do some research around puppy farming, as all the breeds you are considering are prime puppy farm material.

To increase your risk of getting a healthy puppy of whichever breed you choose, you would be best served by finding a breeder who breeds for show and can demonstrate health tests for whatever is appropriate for the breed. Look for someone who still has their oldies living with them, and has their dogs in the house for these breeds. (Outdoors not necessarily an issue, just breed dependent - nobody wants a litter of 12 Labradors indoors all day! - and all these small breeds should be indoors.)

You are likely to have a long wait for a puppy - particularly at the moment - but you will not be supporting a life of misery for the parents and will increase your chances of getting a healthy and well adjusted puppy that looks like the breed you chose.

(For sobering reading, look up this week's thread for the poor family that bought a very sick Border Collie pup - lots of vet bills, lots of trauma, and I think no surviving puppy either.)

Personally I would be avoiding all the popular breeds which are prime candidates for likely being puppy farmed. That's all the small breeds really as they are very portable and all seem to be in high demand.

Terriers mentioned are are usually wee yaps and poodle crosses need a lot of regular grooming which can be be a real faff.

Cavapoos sound pretty great in terms of energy levels and personality and would hopefully have some of the cavalier traits without the health issues. I agree it’d be hard to find one with health tested parents though
Poodles are actually quite high energy dogs.
The vast majority of poodle mixes I’ve met have been very high energy.
I wouldn’t assume a poodle mix will be low energy at all.

I need to research cairns more. If discounted them before and can’t remember why. I think they’re hard to find too?
This is actually a massive benefit.
The unhealthiest breeds are often those that are extremely popular because it means huge numbers get bred by people who are thinking of the money and don’t pair dogs properly.
More popular breeds are more likely to have temperament issues aswell for the same reason.
The poodle mixes are a great example of this.
Incredibly popular and a puppy farmers dream.
As a result, there are many threads with people who can’t cope with (inherited) behavioural issues in their poodle mixes.
Ask people for their personal experiences of poodle mixes, quite a few, myself included, will tell you many they meet are ‘high strung’ ‘wild’ ‘no off switch’ ‘incredibly high energy’

Another option is a shih tzu/poodle mix. They seem a little hardier than pedigree poodles. I know people hate the poodle mixes on here though
It’s because they tend to be bred by people who are in it for the money.

Westies are adorable, stubborn and loyal, can you tell I have one yes, skin issues are a thing, but with good food and the occasional malaseb wash she has been fine. Good with the granddaughters, Happy with a short or long walk, but, she is woofy, anything that passes the house is woofed at, visitors to the house are woofed at. Mind you she is adorable, small, and rocks my world

Have a look at the Cavachon breed. My little one is just coming up to a year in March. He is adorable.
He would be a great dog for kids. Has been easy to train, easy to walk. Bursts of energy but also likes to sleep at your feet during the day whilst I'm working or on calls.
Needs a face trim once a month.

I would second a bichon. I knew a lovely little one, didn’t need pile of walks but always ready to go for long ones at the weekend. Definitely converted me to the breed if I was looking for a small companion dog. Needs regular grooming but that’s the case for all the mixes you’re talking about.

I have a Zuchon - Shih Zhu x Bichon Frise which would fit all your needs. Loves running round beach/Park but equally happy to cuddle up with you. No problem with longer walks. Doesn't shed. Easy to train. He really is perfect

Westies are the besties! That said, I'm a terrier fan and love the cheekiness. Westies have a reputation for westitude - haven't seen it in my boy, he's just a cheeky terrier. They can be prone to skin issues, so you need to research your breeders very carefully and specifically ask if the pair being bred have ever had a litter which had skin issues. Doesn't eliminate all risk, but can reduce hereditary risk.

I researched a lot for a breed to replace my staffy when he passed. My westie has been perfect from the second he walked through the door. Exactly what I wanted in a dog. Cheeky, cocky, exuberant, fiesty (baled a stranger up on the roof one night), snuggly, very devoted to me. The breed standard calls for a varminty expression and they're a bit varminty in character too.

Where I live, we've got a social westie group and meet up monthly for walks. It's fun to see 20-50 westies racing around at puppy park and then heading off for a walk. They are super cute.

What about a miniature poodle, we have one and he’s fab. You do have to brush regularly and groom every 6-8 weeks but they don’t shed and can walk shorter or longer amounts each day. Plus you can gate the parents are properly health tested and you know what you’re getting rather than a cross.

Have a look at the vulnerable native breeds list.

They tend to be bred by enthusiasts who are absolutely dedicated to the improvement of the breed and are far less likely to be found in puppy farm situations. It means you will probably have to wait a bit longer, as fewer are born each year, but it’s generally worth the wait.

What about a Norwich or Norfolk terrier?

@sunflowersandbuttercups That was a typo. I actually meant hardier than shih tzus.

Would I be mad to consider any terrier as a first time dog owner?
Me I’ll have a look at the other breeds suggested. It really is a minefield. I understand the popular breeds are often puppy farmed but there’s a reason why those breeds are popular. I really don’t want to go on an 18months waiting list, for various reasons. But the main one being a dog is going to massively benefit the mental health of my child, routine, walks ect. We’ve waited so long already for permission, which hopefully we’ll get.
It seems impossible to find a breeder, of a popular breed that doesn’t have a ridiculous waiting list or is a puppy farmer.

I do like the sound of terriers though. I don’t think a sensitive fragile dog would enjoy my
Household very much. It’s generally quiet, but not always, and when it’s not, it’s really not! and we do like to get out a lot. I don’t want a dog with breathing issues or that can’t run around with the kids. But I’m nervous as a first time owner and I’m worried a terrier would walk all over me

Where in the country are you OP? Might help for recommendations for breeders