Another breed help question, sorry!

[Letmeout21]

I have posted before but can’t find it. I’ve been researching breeds for over a year now so feel like I’m well prepared.
I’m actually waiting for confirmation from landlord (council) that we’re allowed a dog so still nothings concrete. I might be allowed based on children’s mental health needs.
Narrowed it down to:
Cavalier (health issues I know)
Cavapoo
Shih tzu
Westie
Open to suggestions. Not a rescue.
Kids are 8 and 15. Generally my household is pretty calm but youngest can be quite energetic and loud at times. Would be great company for a dog that loves to run around a park. Oldest would like a cuddle buddy.
On an average day probably an 60 mins walks a day split between 3 walks (2 short ones). More at weekends. I guess realistically we need a lower energy breed as we wouldn’t meet high exercise needs in the week but I wouldn’t want a dog that isn’t able to cope with a couple of hours round a park. This is what’s worrying me about a shih tzu.
I love westies but I don’t have much experience of terriers.

Any first hand experience of these breeds? What they’re like with children? Exercise needs?

London

I understand the popular breeds are often puppy farmed but there’s a reason why those breeds are popular
There are literally hundreds of breeds out there, less popular breeds can make really lovely pets too!
They are often healthier aswell.
Popularity in dogs is a curse.
It attracts greed and creates disease and bad temperaments.

I really don’t want to go on an 18months waiting list, for various reasons
I think that’s a little selfish tbh.
You may be able to find a perfectly nice, well bred, healthy puppy in less time but if you can’t, Is it really worth it to risk stress and possible heartbreak just to have a puppy ‘now’?

The horrendous border collie thread, I think it may have been linked already, think the title is ‘new border collie worries’ or something like that is worth a read.
It outlines precisely why rushing a puppy purchase is a very bad idea.
The puppy in that thread is dead and its owners heartbroken.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/the_doghouse/4172778-New-border-collie-pup-worries

Had Cavaliers all my life. Yes they have health issues, but know your stuff, do your research and don’t rule them out but be picky.

I wouldn’t touch a Cairn terrier, my grandparents had a vicious one, put me off for life.

Had Cavaliers all my life. Yes they have health issues, but know your stuff, do your research and don’t rule them out but be picky
Is that a joke?
You do realise that more than 50% have Mitral Valve Heart disease by 5 years old..?
And that almost 100% of Cavaliers have it by age 10?
And that at 70% (possibly more) are affected by Syringomelia by 6 years old?

“It seems impossible to find a breeder, of a popular breed that doesn’t have a ridiculous waiting list or is a puppy farmer.”

There’s a reason for that though - good breeders plan their litters that far or further in advance and that’s about how often they breed a litter too.

Very very occasionally you’ll find a good breeder who has a litter bigger than their waiting list or has some people pull out and you’d not have to wait as long, but, it’s not something you can count on and at the moment waiting lists are huge as well.

It’s a bit like saying, I want a handmade made to order sofa, but I don’t want to wait for them to make it and I don’t want to support the sweat shop human traffickers that can get me one straight away... it’s pretty much one of those, or buy a second hand one.

Those are the options really.

I know it sounds selfish but 18 months really is a long time to wait.

OP, I can recommend a breeder who out-crosses her Cavaliers to improve health (she also thoroughly and repeatedly health-tests them). I can PM you her details if you're interested.

That sounds wrong, because I’m happy to wait, just not quite 18 months. My oldest would be nearly 17! A dog has been wanted for so long, and to finally be allowed and then have to wait another 18months would be unbearable. Having the routine of daily walks ect is going to be of massive benefit to my kids, as will the companionship.

@theconstantinoplegardener yes please!

Our shihtzu has quite a healthy long nose and is great on walks. He is hilarious. We are dog groomers and usually Whig rays have the most character in the salon.

I would avoid westies. Cavaliers are great company but as you say health issues are a put off.

Cavapoos coat maintenance can be a big job.

I might be biased but I'm all for a shih tzu for what you describe

@Letmeout21 I've messaged you, good luck!

I may be underestimating the coat maintenance of a cavapoo or other similar breeds. I’m focused on other things so I’m thinking it’s something I’d compromise on but maybe I should give grooming needs more thought.
I never actually knew about breathing problems with shih tzus. I’ve avoided pugs and frenchies for those reasons even though I like frenchies.

I’m on a waiting list for a vulnerable breed and most people for that breed seem to get their pup within/up to 12 months. Last year did slow things down, but those that already had full waiting lists have just started breeding again. It won’t necessarily be as long as 18 months.

Imo, you need to decide on a breed, make sure you do your research re health issues and specific health testing etc, then get in contact with the breed club and some of the recommended breeders their puppy co-ordinator/puppy list manager suggests. Then make a concerted effort to join some breed specific and/or breeder run forums/FB groups, so you can show the breeder you are serious and they can suss you out, while you learn more about the breed along the way.

If you make contact with the breed club and some breeders from there, they will often share info between them of planned litters, and if you are waiting too long they may refer you to another breeder who is planning a litter.

In my experience, breeders of vulnerable breeds tend to be part of a supportive and enthusiastic breed community who all talk to each other, so it’s well worth becoming part of that if you would like one of their pups.

@Letmeout21

I may be underestimating the coat maintenance of a cavapoo or other similar breeds. I’m focused on other things so I’m thinking it’s something I’d compromise on but maybe I should give grooming needs more thought. I never actually knew about breathing problems with shih tzus. I’ve avoided pugs and frenchies for those reasons even though I like frenchies.

Anything with a poodle in the mix is likely to need a lot of grooming - I would suggest daily brushing plus regular trips to the groomers (every 4-6 weeks or so).

Of course you can do it yourself but I wouldn't recommend it without any experience. It's just worth considering in terms of time and cost.

How about a Skye Terrier - they are substantial and sturdy dogs and endangered too. Or a Dandie Dinmont or a Bedlington. I love Wheaten Terriers.
I know of a litter of Tibetan Terriers that will be likely to be happening later this year.
I personally like a herding dog so have a rough collie and she is very sweet. Sheltie? I think they can be barky though. Portugese Water Dog?

How about a Skye Terrier - they are substantial and sturdy dogs and endangered too
I don’t think this is a wise suggestion personally. Very challenging in temperament from what I’ve read on here.
Tbh, based on the comments I’ve read here, they don’t sound at all suited to being family pets.
They are also seriously ugly..
I can’t say I’m surprised they are endangered!

We have a cavapoo. He is a great dog. Loves his people. Both parents had 5 gen pedigrees and health tested. No problems, as a consequence, with his hips, knees, or heart. He is smarter and more energetic than my mum's cavalier - loves chasing balls and squirrels - but also happy to laze about most of the day between walks.
Coat wise cavapoos seem a little more silky/ wavy and less curly than cockapoos, though there is variation. They need combing each day and a groom every couple of months. Most don't shed but if you get one that takes after the cavalier side they may.

The main problem with cavapoos imo is finding a decent home breeder using health tested parents. There are lots of scammers about.

Lhasa apso. Shih tzus were originally bred from them. Sturdy dogs & longer snout. Ours can walk for miles. We rehomed her but I know her breeder if you would like me to pm you her details.

I forgot to say I need a small-medium sized dog as it’ll likely be part of the agreement from landlord.

@ImAncient yes please and I’ll do some research, I have come across them on my searches.

What about a Jack Russell they have a reputation for being yappy but ours isn't and neither where the two I grew up with. Mine and my parents are excellent with kids have the energy to go for long walks but also love a good cuddle. In fact both the ones I currently know just want to be loved. Also not a lot of health problems.

@slowbumper They do have a bit of a reputation. I’m erring on the side of caution with anything with a rep of being a bit difficult, as I don’t have much experience. That’s what’s putting me off westies, which I love.

All the advice has been great but I’m still none the wiser 😂
Cavaliers-poor health
Cavapoos- poor breeding
Westies- maybe too ‘terrier’
Cairns- need to research more
Shih tzus- seem good, need to research health
Shihtzu/poodle- poor breeding
Someone mentioned cavachon which also sound good but have the same issues with breeders.

I’m going to contact the breeder recommended to me by a pp earlier so that’s hopeful but still lots of questions to be asked.
Mom going to see if I can find any reputable breeders that thoroughly health test for any of the cross breeds that don’t have 18months waiting lists but it’s unlikely.

In the end I think it’s going to come down to finding the right breeder rather than the right breed.

Imo, in terms of health, you should be going for a ‘natural’ looking breed - no squashed faces, no domed skulls, no shortened noses, no overly long backs, no stupidly small legs.

Ideally, the breeder will have health tested the parents eg Patella screening for toy breeds who are prone to patella luxation, DNA tests for PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) for poodles etc.

Each breed will have a list of recommended health tests.
In practice, unfortunately, I find the vast majority of breeders, including those Kennel Club registered, either do not health test or do the bare minimum.

If the litter is Kennel Club registered, check the inbreeding coefficient of the litter, you want a low level of inbreeding.

Toy breeds typically don’t leave until 10 - 12 weeks, 8 weeks for bigger breeds.

By law the puppy should be microchipped, they may have had their first vaccine at 8 weeks or if at 12 weeks they may have had both.

Check the parents temperament is nice!
Cannot emphasise this enough.
Temperament is largely inherited.

We have a Cavalier and couldn't have asked for a better breed for our family. However, it's almost impossible to find a health-tested puppy at the moment and I would never get another without all the tests. Ours is 4 years old now and in perfect health, but I'm pretty anxious at every vet check just in case that changes!
We were considering a Havanese when we were looking for a puppy - have you looked into them?