Going round and round trying to figure out best breed for us (family dog)...

[CityDweller]

... and I'm hoping for some advice!

We're hoping to get a dog in the next year. Family of four. DC currently 7 & 5. Live semi-rurally. Plenty of space indoor and out. Someone at home nearly all the time. First-time dog-owners. We also have chickens. DC would also like guinea pigs in the near future.

Every time I think I've found 'the right' breed, I then read something that puts me off or we meet a dog that makes me re-think.

Requirements are:

• loving, gentle and friendly
• will bond with all of us (i.e. not a 'one-person dog),
• not prone to jumping up (or can easily be trained out of it as a pup)
• not too 'mad' or zoomy around the house (beyond the puppy phase)
• characterful and a properly 'doggy' dog (i.e. not a greyhound!)
• medium/large in size
• ideally not too smelly/ sheddy (although will compromise on this if dog fits the bill in all other ways)

These are the breeds on my short list, but they all seem to have various drawbacks that are making me pause:
Irish terrier
Irish setter
Golden retriever
Cocker or Springer spaniel (working)
Standard poodle

I also really love the look and sound of Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers (Tollers), but they seem impossible to find...

Any input on whether any of these breeds might suit us, or others worth considering, would be much appreciated!

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman thanks, that's helpful. It seems that Irish terriers have a 'reputation' for being fighty, but whenever I speak to someone who actually knows or owns one, they say different. So I'm keeping them on the list as they fit the bill perfectly in all other ways. Plus they're gorgeous!

Goldens. Gah - it's like they're the opposite. Reputation for being the perfect family dog, but then so many first-hand reports of issues like resource guarding, and so on. I wonder if that's because there are so many of them/ higher risk of badly bred/ puppy farmed ones? The one golden we know well is absolutely lovely and my DC really fell for him. But his owner's parent's golden is apparently a complete nightmare.

As you say - all dogs are individuals.

And, ok, @PoleToPole - poodles stay on the list!

Thanks so much guys. All this first-hand knowledge is so helpful...

Oh, and I don't think a show cocker is for us. But only because it's another breed that I'm not drawn to. No real reason and the ones mentioned on here do all sound lovely!

PolePup is very pale cream coloured too, and PoleDog is white @CityDweller, so not like I wouldn`t notice the mud!

All dogs are individuals, and finding a breeder who breeds for health and temperament and who really knows their dogs is like finding a needle in a haystack.

When you do find a breeder you can trust, get to know them as well as you can, and make sure they get to know you, be completely honest, warts and all.
Go into as much depth about the characters of each of your family members and their faults/flaws too. That way the breeder will have the best possible idea of whether one of their pups might suit you or not.

Not perhaps a popular opinion, but I am also very anti choosing a pup from a litter, I prefer the breeder to suggest which pup would suit us best as they know their pups much better than you would ever be able to tell from a visiting to choose one.

I have always let the breeder pick a pup for us, and knowing all of my dogs siblings and their families over the years I can say hand on heart it has been the best thing to do, every single one of our dogs has been amazing and a perfect fit for our family.
I have never even had a preference for sex, although I have almost always ended up with male dogs.

That is on the huge, huge proviso that it is a trusted breeder with the pups` best interests at heart - not an unscrupulous one who will try to palm off the sick one/runt on you.

Goldie every day of the week (but good luck finding one, as all the decent non puppy farming breeders have full waiting lists)

Yes they are hairy muck magnets, but their lovely character makes up for that.

I also would not have a rescue dog as a first dog, or for inexperienced dog owners. I have fostered many, many dogs and it is extremely rare that they do not have at least some minor issues, either behavioural, health or both.

When its your first dog as an adult its a bit of a steep learning curve anyway, throw issues into the mix and things can go bad fast. That is not to say it can`t be done, but if you do go down that route try to find a dog who has been in a foster home for a while, with foster parents who will be completely honest with you.

I will probably be berated for saying this, but when I was fostering there were a fair few fosterers and rescues (including ones considered very reputable with their "matching") who minimise issues or outright lie to get a dog into a forever home as they are banking on the fact that once you have the dog you you will bond with it and will try to work through things rather than return it.
Its not always such an issue if you are experienced with dogs, but can be a nightmare for first time owners.

Sometimes its as simple as an issue hasnt been picked up and then manifests, but either way that isnt any good for the dog or the new family. Sometimes it works out in the end, sometimes not, but it is something to go into with your eyes wide open.

Of course, puppies are extremely hard work, too, and I think people often underestimate just what a huge commitment they are. Make sure you have plenty of coffee. And good human biscuits by the barrel load! Sugar and caffeine can get you through most things

Resource guarding and Goldens wouldn't really worry me if you go with a breeder who focusses on temperament. By focussed on temperament I'd want to see proof of some obedience titles in the line and also someone who temperament tests the puppies. If you find a breeder that lets people pick in order of deposit I'd run. There are A LOT of poorly bred puppy farm goldens out there.

15 minutes of drying off after every walk plus having to brush out a dog every day would dry me around the bend with a poodle. I just don't have nor want to give 30 minutes a day or more to dog grooming. I spend 15 minutes a week brushing out our Swissie and that's plenty for me. It just depends on what you want. I also really don't like poodles and have met so many unstable ones. I'd take a Goldie any day.

No matter what puppy you get from day 1 you should start "trade me" as a game. Dog has a bone or toy say "trade me" and offer the dog a really yummy treat and take the thing they had. Hold onto it for a few seconds and give it back. When you feed them give a half portion then take the bowl up and add more. Get the kids to wander past and drop more food in. If you find an 8 week old pup that growls at you when you attempt to take a ball off it - don't take that pup.

Crikey, I thought ten to fifteen minutes after each walk was minimal - takes me a bloody sight longer with PoleDog, maybe I ought to start using Daz on him

I have a very bouncy poodle that tears around the house and definitely not into affectionate lolloping.
However, standard poodles can be trained as Assistance Dogs which tells you everything you need to know about their intelligence, their bond with humans, desire to do "work" rather than sleep.
Mine is miniature (medium size 10kg) and a live wire.
He does not shed at all and smells lovely even when wet and muddy. Lives with cat (s).
Standard poodles are meant to be wonderful companions but quite strong minded, in similar fashion to my miniature.
Not like cocker spaniels at all in temperament, the cockers I knew of required tonnes of exercise, not just brain training.

With standard poodles you can minimize mud etc by clipping short and putting on an aquafleece before walks. They smell so heavenly, never that pong of wet dog, or am I just biased?

I usually own short haired dogs, I’ve had a couple of lab crosses, a rottie... that sort of coat...

Unless the garden is a swamp, I do nothing about mud other than good door mats. They’re pretty much self cleaning as they walk tbh.

I also only spend about 10 minutes a week on grooming, unless they’re moulting and I’ll do that about 3 or 4 times extra in a fortnight and, um, that’s it tbh, lol

Fosters, they just arrive, so some have had longer coats... the worst so far was a mostly collie, with a bit of spaniel in him somewhere, I had to brush him most days as his coat was really fine and tangled quickly, worse than actual long coated dogs like Lhasa’s

To clarify, my miniature needs tonnes of exercise too, and off lead at that, but he isn't in same league as the exercise requirement of a working cocker spaniel. To see them in park, cockers are flying across the acres, almost floating they are so swift, my poodle is racing rather than floating.

If you don't want zooming around the house forget spaniels.

We have a show cocker he's a lovely dog but mostly bonded to me, like Velcro and pulls on the lead. However his recall is very good and I can control him off the lead with voice really with no problem. He doesn't shed much.

He can't be left at home if any appliance is on he can't cope with the noise!!

He is also hyper alert and barks like a twat anytime anyone comes near the house. I couldn't buy a better security system but working from home with that has been testing....

Like pp I would suggest with your list consider a staffy they really are the chilled out teddy bears of the dog world I adore them.

Oh and my show cocker would be a nightmare with the chickens. He wouldn't know how to catch one but he would bark at them and mither them 85 times a day...I have a rabbit and he can't leave him alone and he never ever gets tired or bothering the rabbit!

However I banned my cocker from jumping up on the kids when he was a puppy and he doesn't do it. Even when dd1 pleads with him. He just sits there...

So 2 thngs

a great friend of mine had a GSD - My mother was friends once with a man who was in charge of police dogs & he has one who was retired - so if you would ike a GSD possibly worth asking if there is a retired police dog ( although - they will be older - but very very gentle and well behaved - but you won't have the dog for long and I think most go to homes with their handlers etc ) But lovely gentle dogs if trained properly

Otherwise - as I always do - recommend a border terrier - possibly a bit smaller than you would like - but they do not know they are little dogs - they behave like big dogs & very affectionate, love humans & great with children . They are wiry haired , they do shed - I cannot say otherwise but if stripped this is very much mitigated.

Other than that I wish you well and hope you get a dog who fits in with your family

How much time have you to spend with whatever dog you choose? given puppy classes will be limited for some time, when would you get the puppy and how would you socialise it? You have plenty of time if you're not working but not if you are. I don't understand why you are getting a puppy and thinking of guinea pig etc.

@crosstalk - this is a long-term planning thing. I'm figuring out suitable breeds now so that we can then move on to finding a good breeder and I know that with any good breeder the wait will be relatively long. One breeder I'm talking to about Irish terriers the wait would likely be at least a year, that's if she decides we're a suitable family for one of her dogs. That's fine by me.

Guinea pigs looking imminent (the children are desperate for them and as they're struggling with this new lockdown, we're thinking that a pair of guinea pigs would really help give them a lift), new puppy at earliest over the summer, but more likely in a year or 18 months.

Guinea pigs are wonderful pets for children , we loved ours . What about a soft wheaten terrier they seem to get rave reviews from people we know with them .

Old English Sheepdog? They actually don't shed a lot because of their curly coat. If you keep them reasonably clipped rather than the Dulux look that doesn't take too much maintenance.

They are patient, loyal, walk forever if needed, big proper dogs. In my experience not barky but your mileage may vary. They are utterly beautiful and I would have one in an instant if I didn't live in a city.

No, I hadn't considered an OES @OcelotPanda, but will do so. They are gorgeous dogs.

OP, I think you are overthinking this. So many variables are there that I wouldn't bank on any particular puppy being an exact typical specimen of its breed in terms of temperament or behaviour. And so much is down to you as the owner and trainer once you have the pup.

Everyone giving you opinions here will be biased either for or against based on their own experiences. You can't base your decision on other people's experiences.

I hope you don't rule out perfectly acceptable dogs just because you heard a story about one that did x, y or z.

There was a poster a long time ago who picked "the perfect" breed. A golden retriever. She researched and researched. In the end the dog turned out to be far more work than she imagined and had a sensitive stomach, her kids didn't like the time she spent with the dog either.
I think she rehomed it after much heartache and Mumsnet and RL drama.
The point being, there is no perfect breed.

Personally the best way to find the sort of dog you like is to look after someone else's dog for a bit or every Saturday, have one visit, see how you feel having this large creature roam around your belongings and kids (hopefully child vetted) if you feel anti one breed quite often it is a sign that dogs aren't really your cup of tea...dogs is dogs in my book.

Another vote for poodle!
Our poodle is so loving and gentle. A bit nippy for the first few weeks - more so than with our previous labradors and a retriever - but he’s over that now.
I don’t agree with a pp about grooming hassle after walks. We live in a rural area and have no problem brushing down quickly after a muddy walk. Ours goes to the groomers every 6 weeks (so you have to factor in that cost), but otherwise I feel he is low maintenance. He always smells lovely! Our labs and retriever were comparatively much smellier and the hair shedding was massive.
I love the fact that poodles are good family dogs. Although I like to think I’m his favourite human he appears to love us all equally. He adores my children even when they manhandle him.
I’ve found him extremely easy to train and he has brilliant recall. He’s still quite young and does like to zoom about in the early evening, but also very chilled out in front of the fire.
Poodles are one of the most intelligent dogs, so the only potential downside is if they don’t get enough stimulation. Our poodle is definitely not as biddable as our labs were. But I rather like the glint of naughtiness in his eye!
Good luck with the hunting!

OP, I think you are overthinking this
Mum, is that you?

Yes, I know. I overthink! And now DC have thrown a spanner in the works after seeing a flat coated retriever on a walk and declaring that they really really want a dog like that!

Thanks again for everyone's patient input. It really is so helpful to hear all these opinions. Although we do understand that so much comes down to breeding and how we raise the pup, it is so useful to get a sense of first-hand experience of different breeds.

I really do think an OES would fit your bill nicely. My OES could basically understand English, she was so clever and easy to train!