Furious.. Please tell me if I am in the wrong here

[HolyMolyMeOhMy]

Just been to the park with our 2 dogs who are always kept on their leads. They are well behaved dogs but one of them has always been very nervous and he doesn’t like being approached by other dogs or people, especially if they get right in his face, and reacts by barking and chewing on his lead. The other one is ok but can often give the impression that he wants to play with other dogs but then change his mind in a second and start yapping. For this reason they are both always kept close to us on their leads.
A large dog off its lead just approached us and tried to get close to the dogs, so we pulled them away. The dog wouldn’t go away so my DH asked the owners if they could get hold of it it. They eventually managed to call it away after several attempts. DH then says that it should be on a lead, to which the woman responds that the majority of the dogs in the park are also off lead. I tried to politely explain to her that our dogs don’t particularly like other dogs, to which she replied “that’s not our problem, socialise your dogs then”.
I was furious that she said this! She has no idea of the reasons why my dogs are like that and in my opinion she was the one in the wrong by letting her dog go off approaching other people’s dogs, especially when they’re on leads. Our dogs were under control. Am I right to be annoyed by this? I am not normally an angry person but she honestly made me furious by saying this!
I am also not of the opinion that the dog should necessarily have been on a lead (like my DH told her it should have been) but I would at least expect her to keep it away from other dogs who are on leads.

your dh was wrong to say her dog should be on a lead,
her dog should not have bothered your two on leads though, is that what your dh meant?

And how are people supposed to pick up a large fully grown dog
Of course but the people in using OP who raised the issue said their dog was small. Most dogs will not jump at this point. It's never happened to me when I had to pick up my dog and OP didn't mention jumping.

Basic etiquette is you don't let your dog run up to a dog on a lead
But most dogs in a lead do like other dogs coming to them, most are on the lead not because of anxiety but because of no recall. They still want to socialise.

If OP had said the other dog had been jumping on her dog, growling, hitting with his paws, the fair enough to be annoyed but this wasn't the case, it was only approaching the dogs. OP says that one of her dogs acts like it wants to socialise but then change its mind, that would be confusing for other dogs.

OP needs to take responsibility for her dogs behaviour and needs and can't expect other dogs to exhibit intelligence that means they will systematically stay 2 metres away from any dogs on the lead even when acting happy and in an area where does don't have to be on the lead, not expect owners to always be 1 metre away from the dog so they can tell that the dog is very upset even when the dog is doing nothing but being close by.

Also, OP says that she normally goes at another quieter time. It might be that the other dog is there every day at that time and there have never been issues before.

“If you have an anxious child starting school and you are holding his hand in the playground. Would you tell of the mum of the kid who comes to yours and badger him with questions getting close? No because he'd be doing nothing wrong being in the playground. You'd wait for the mum to come and explain your child is anxious and this makes him more nervous and the mum would tell his child to move away.”

That analogy is wrong - Dog’s that run over to greet anxious or reactive dogs aren’t being friendly, they’re bullies...

They can see from body language that a dog isn’t happy to interact with them, and they do it anyway.

The equivalent in a playground would be a child asking if they wanted to play and when the answer was no grabbing them to do it anyway.

You're both wrong. Your dogs should be socialized and able to behave around other dogs. What if you ever dropped the lead by accident and they got loose? They might bite, which is unfair to all the nice dogs around.

The other owner is also wrong for not training her dog not to approach dogs on leash. Both of you make me angry at bad dog owners.

*OP's dogs not being socialised isn't the issue. They were on their leads minding their own business.

This lady couldn't control her dog and instead decided to let it run over to other random dogs. If your dog has no recall, keep it on a lead! It's not complicated. There are far too many arrogant dog owners around these days and they give other owners a bad name.

Dogs should be able to be recalled away from other dogs or people. If you can't do that, use a lead.*

Exactly this. The other woman was massively in the wrong.

That analogy is wrong - Dog’s that run over to greet anxious or reactive dogs aren’t being friendly, they’re bullies...
What a lot of rubbish! It's when I read posts like this that I can't help wonder how much some dogs are anxious due to their owners attitude.

OP admits she normally takes her dogs at a different time to avoid exactly what happened. That's the right thing to do. This day they didn't, yet when faced with what they normally avoid, overacted.

I can imagine the scene, 20 dogs 9ff the lead acting like dogs and enjoying themselves, and all owners calling their dogs frantically and all of them put on the lead for the duration of OP getting through the park.

This is ridiculous. As said already, this a dog who was ONLY approaching OP, not jumping manically at her dogs.

Why dont you train yours to be happier with other dogs? Do you never let them off lead?

I have a reactive dog. She's likely to be that way for her entire life because she's a rescue who had a shit start in life and you can't ever recreate the important first few months of socialisation because biology.

She is better for having been to training classes where we can meet other dogs under controlled circumstances, which we haven't been able to go to for months because covid. Never the less I've been doing everything I can during the pandemic and we have had a couple of really nice interactions with passing dogs in the park recently.

It is morally and legally a dog owner's responsibility to be in control of their dog. It is nobody else's responsibility but yours to ensure that your off lead dog doesn't approach dogs who are on lead. Perhaps you should ask them why they don't just train their dogs to be better citizens and if they can't control them off lead why they don't just keep them on the lead?

i let my dog do the talking!
the soon learn she doesnt appreciate being approached when on a lead

“What a lot of rubbish! It's when I read posts like this that I can't help wonder how much some dogs are anxious due to their owners attitude.”

Lol...

Dog interactions when one dog is anxious or reactive and one is friendly and well socialised don’t actually end up with the dogs being anywhere near each other.

The friendly one will start to approach, the other will make it very clear it’s not happy to meet, the friendly dog will go off and do something else.

The, I can see you don’t want to interact with me, but I’m going to carry on coming over anyway dogs need socialising and training just as much as a nervous or reactive dog does, they’re just at the opposite end of social skills problems.

What a lot of rubbish! It's when I read posts like this that I can't help wonder how much some dogs are anxious due to their owners attitude
It’s not rubbish at all.
Well socialised dogs don’t go racing over to dogs who clearly don’t want to interact and if they do, they back off when they get growls, lip curls etc.

I get incredibly angry when I get dogs race over to my dog off lead, she will turn away from them, instead of reading the (very clear and non confrontational) message correctly they will then persist in trying to interact with her.
Even when she’s snarling her head off and snapping the air at them.

If a dog is being growled and snapped at and it still persists they are not well socialised, it’s absolutely ridiculous to try and suggest they are and yes I may even use the word ‘bully’ for such dogs.

As for anxious due to other people’s attitude, I actually put a great deal of effort into socialising my dog as a puppy as she’s a breed prone to nervousness.
She became aggressive after other people’s dogs repeatedly threatened her, attacked her and accidentally hurt her by being overly boisterous.

It is morally and legally a dog owner's responsibility to be in control of their dog. It is nobody else's responsibility but yours to ensure that your off lead dog doesn't approach dogs who are on lead
The first part is correct but it appliess to ALL dog owners. If you have a dog who is going to be distressed by a dog just approaching their parameters, don't walk them in places where it is acceptable for dogs to do just that.

If you walk in a 'dog on lead only' area and a dog off lead approaches your dog, then yes, you are entitled to tell the owners they are being irresponsible.

@tabulahrasa

“What a lot of rubbish! It's when I read posts like this that I can't help wonder how much some dogs are anxious due to their owners attitude.”

Lol...

Dog interactions when one dog is anxious or reactive and one is friendly and well socialised don’t actually end up with the dogs being anywhere near each other.

The friendly one will start to approach, the other will make it very clear it’s not happy to meet, the friendly dog will go off and do something else.

The, I can see you don’t want to interact with me, but I’m going to carry on coming over anyway dogs need socialising and training just as much as a nervous or reactive dog does, they’re just at the opposite end of social skills problems.

I agree, the ones ignoring the cues are normally youngsters, I would hope at least.

dogs sort it out themselves, no need for human interaction

dogs sort it out themselves, no need for human interaction

FGS I really hope you cop on before you subject a fearful dog to that bullshit and before a dog gets seriously injured from this irresponsible attitude.

Well socialised dogs don’t go racing over to dogs who clearly don’t want to interact and if they do, they back off when they get growls, lip curls etc.
All depends on how you define racing. I have a small puppy so I'm very conscious of dogs 'racing' but in my experience, they race and then slow totally down before reaching the dog. I've also seen owners freaking out when a dog, even small, just approach at normal friendly speed and they probably call this 'racing'.

If a dog is being growled and snapped at and it still persists they are not well socialised
That I totally agree with. My puppy has learned this. I had owners apologising for their dog growling and I say there is no need, that's their way of communicating and that's absolutely fine. My 6 months old now will indeed move away immediately. He actually can now read other dogs quite well so this only rarely happens now. If I see a dog on a lead with the owner pulling on it as my dog start to go in their direction, I call him before he gets there and will always come back.

It took 3 months to learn all this though. Thankfully, everyone has been lovely and never once was I told to put him back on the lead, they just explained their dog was nervous and I'd pick mine up.

Our park has two nice area, one on lead and one off. If one owner had complained, I'd told them they were free to walk their dog in the lead it section where my dog is always on the lead.

We have a nervous dog. She is only ever walked on a lead. Our village is full of dog owners. Most are fine but ours was terrified by a couple of friendly labs coming up to her.
There is nowhere to walk her where we wouldn't encounter other dogs. We walk her early morning, evening then once during the day.

We hire a dog field once a week for her to have a good run without being bothered.

We're obviously working on her anxiety but she's a rescue and it will take time.

I wish other dog owners would realise other dogs are on a lead for a reason

@ColleagueFromMars

dogs sort it out themselves, no need for human interaction

FGS I really hope you cop on before you subject a fearful dog to that bullshit and before a dog gets seriously injured from this irresponsible attitude.

indeed

but it is true, if we studied dogs behaviour, their body language, you would know full well when to leave alone or when to approach.

@Tomatoesneedtoripen

dogs sort it out themselves, no need for human interaction

I’m currently fostering a slightly nervous Rottweiler, I’m not walking him in parks where dogs gather, but, we meet offlead dogs.

He’s on lead because of health reasons and because he’s not happy about other dogs, he’s a very sweet timid dog and his nervousness just consists of being a bit tense, but because he’s on lead I can intervene if another dog is too close and ask the owner to call them away, block the dog if needed.

Do you really think it’s better to leave them to it? Because having observed him for the last couple of months I suspect he wouldn’t tell a dog to back off until he was so worked up that it would be a pretty major issue...

I’m pretty sure the teenager I had to ask to catch their cockerpoo the other day would prefer me politely going, can you catch your dog, mine isn’t happy to their very small dog being on the receiving end of a Rottweiler freak out.

some posters are so dogmatic!

of course nobody would actually leave them to it, but give them more credit to sort it out between themselves!

“but in my experience, they race and then slow totally down before reaching the dog.”

Yep, if they’ve got decent social skills it’s quite a distance away... well, for a person, lol, well out of actual greeting range.

I don’t mean that, I mean after that point where they either don’t stop to check if the other dog wants to meet them, or they ignore the other dog going, nope and come closer.

of course nobody would actually leave them to it, but give them more credit to sort it out between themselves!
Which is it?

Because you initially said:

dogs need to sort it out for themselves, no need for human interaction
So, are we meant to intervene or not?
The two posts are completely contradictory!

The first part is correct but it appliess to ALL dog owners. If you have a dog who is going to be distressed by a dog just approaching their parameters, don't walk them in places where it is acceptable for dogs to do just that.

I just don't agree that it is acceptable for dogs to do that anywhere other than a designated doggy play area. The park I am thinking of is open space and i can give a football pitch length distance between us and any other dog or human. Dogs are walked there both on and off the lead - including mine when it's quiet enough. If we get anywhere near approaching another dog's path, she goes back on lead. Depending on a huge number of parameters we may also turn and give the other dog as wide a berth as physically possible (just over the length of a football pitch). 99.9% of the time it totally works for everybody involved. 0.1% of the time some dickhead with an out of control large breed dog watches them bounce over to and into my dog's personal space, and when I pre-empt it by asking them to call their dog away they inevitably reply "oh it's fine, mine is friendly!!"

Sorry but my dog is on a lead and I have gone out of my way to put considerable distance between me and them. There is no way that I am just as responsible for any altercation that happens when their dog who can't read/doesn't respect doggy body language bounces up into my dog's personal space and their owner did zero to even recognise that they should recall their dog, let alone do it effectively. If you see a dog on a lead that tends to be a universal signal that you should at least ask the owner if they're okay with your dog approaching and you should keep your dog away if they're not welcome. I've had both types of dog.

There is an enclosed dog walking field locally where I don't take my current dog because it is treated like a free play park. That's not the situation that I'm talking about and I don't believe that's what the OP is talking about either.

@Borderstotheleftofme

of course nobody would actually leave them to it, but give them more credit to sort it out between themselves! Which is it?

Because you initially said:

dogs need to sort it out for themselves, no need for human interaction
So, are we meant to intervene or not?
The two posts are completely contradictory!

i am sure you can make your own mind up, no need to be like a dog with a bone