Considering putting dog to sleep

[roo2018]

Please don’t flame me. I’m heartbroken just a thought of this but my dog is aggressive and I’ve tried everything. I’ve worked with 2 different trainers since we got him at 8 weeks old. His dog aggression started at 8 months, our old trainers methods wasn’t working so we sought a new one 6 months ago. His overall obedience is perfect. But his aggression has only gotten worse. He’s now growling/lunging at anyone who tries to talk to us on walks. He’s been muzzled since he bit both me and my partner after re-directing his aggression from other dogs onto us. He’s restricted to his crate most of the time in the house because he’s scared of outside noises so has to be on a lead and supervised whenever he’s out of the crate. We can only walk him on our street because he’s too nervy/reactive for other public places. This was only supposed to be short term until he improved and realised he doesn’t have to be so scared of everything, but it’s been going on for months and he has no quality of life. He’s constantly on alert and reacting to things. I feel like his aggression is worsening instead of improving.
I’m now considering having him put to sleep for his own benefit because I feel guilty that he has no quality of life. I have children who are not allowed around him unsupervised but they love him to bits and will be as heartbroken as me.
He is a lovely dog when he’s not scared and loves affection. I feel bad because I know it’s not his fault he’s like this. It’s probably a genetic issue given that we’ve tried everything and there aren’t any improvements.
What do I do? If I do have him put to sleep, do I just book him in the vets? Will they agree or make me feel guilty?
Any help/advice appreciated.

Thanks everyone for your comments.
I wouldn’t re-home, it wouldn’t be fair to him. He loves his family and I don’t believe anyone could handle him better than we can. So he’d eventually be put to sleep anyway or live out his days alone in a kennel.

I am exhausted with it. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve come home in tears after another walk where I’ve had to battle with him to stop him attacking other dogs or myself. A girl asked me for directions today, he lunged and growled at her, she ran across the road. He looks scary when he reacts like that and I’ve always worried he’d be reported.

For now I’m going to lay off the training. Not take him for walks and just let him run around the garden with his toys and some treats. Let him have some fun and give myself some headspace.

If medication is a viable option then I’ll try it. I’ll book in with the vets once I’ve got my head together and feel ready to tackle it again.

I was going to ask what happens if you just don't walk him, it sounds like it's no fun for you or him. The walk that is. I have a friend who doesn't walk her dog because he finds it too stressful, he pootles around the garden and she does enrichment games with him

I didn’t mean to imply that you hadn’t been committed to helping him @roo2018, but you say in your OP that you have children and he spends a lot of time in a cage and I meant he might be better in an all adult home where he is the sole dependent IYSWIM . FWIW my mother had a mastiff x ridgeback that spent the latter years of his life as a Valium addict and he did very well on it although he wasn’t remotely aggressive just a bag of nerves without it .

I think it may be a kindness to you and the dog if they are pts. I think you have done enough. Tell yourself "well done" for all that you have done but enough is enough, it has not worked out and it is a kindness to end both your suffering. best wishes to you both.

@roo2018

Ok I’m seeing a lot of recommendations for behavourists so I’ll respond. I’ve done a hell of a lot of research since having him and I don’t believe behaviourists to be the best option for dealing with aggression in dogs. Our first trainer used the same methods as behaviourists do and that was when our dog started re-directing and biting us when out on walks. The trainer we have now deals with dogs that behaviourists are unable to help. He’s rehabilitated hundreds of them but has always been honest in saying that some cases, if genetically unstable in temperament cannot be helped. And I think that’s what I’m dealing with. It’s hard to put across how much effort, training and research you’ve done with a dog on a forum full of people who don’t know you. But I wouldn’t even be considering this if I hadn’t already tried everything.

There is no way any of us can tell you what to do with your dog.

However this post concerns me.

Behaviourists are exactly the people who deal with aggression. They will have had years of practical experience and years of academic study behind them - they are the specialists. Trainers train they do not change behaviour.

No trainer can deal with cases a qualified behaviourist can not deal with. No behaviourist would leave you with no answers.

You can train and put in hours and hours of effort but if it is not the correct training and effort it will have no effect.

Medication for aggression will not be a sedative.

You need to see your vet and ask for a vet referrral to a qualified behaviourist - not one you have researched from the internet not one that trains and "cures" all other dogs.

You will then get an education professional treatment plan or plan of action for your dog. They will look into all options and discuss them with you and look at your situation to see what is the right way forward for you all.

We can not help you here apart from direct you to the professionals

[quote roo2018]@ForeverInSunshine I will look into that then if it doesn’t mean sedation. Thankyou.[/quote]
Most medication given to dogs with the fear based aggression issues which is what you are describing are more like anti depressants/ anti anxiety drugs given to humans. The most common are Prozac and Clomicalm, there are others too but most dogs settle on one of these. Yea they get sleepy and lose appetite while they are adapting but Clomicalm has been the best thing that's happened for my dog. He could not handle training before the meds, now we are making progress, it's slow slow going but it's better.

I'm not sure why you are anti a behaviourist, they can do a training plan ALONGSIDE medication, they have both behaviour training and vet training. It's expensive but usually worth it. Also, please make sure any trainer you are using is positive reinforcement only, you have a dog that's already scared of the world, don't add negative reinforcements/punishments into their life.

For the door knocking/ringing example: You need to train your dog to not react to noises like the door knocking. I know, my dog reacts in the same ways you describe. He barks and barks and barks. We've done lots of "relaxation training" and "desensitisation training". BUT before the meds we couldn't do this at all, he couldn't handle knocking no matter how low the noise, now, after months of training sometimes he doesn't bark. We've managed to get him not to be scared of fireworks and babies crying and other noises.

I understand your frustration and sheer exhaustion of dealing with the fear based aggression behaviours that your dog is displaying. I've been there, I've cried, I've raged, I considered giving him up 100 times. But he is still here and we are persevering. Please talk to your vet or a behaviourist about meds, you and your dog both deserve to know that you gave your dog every chance to learn to manage his emotions.

Happy to chat about this always!

@roo2018 I should have said, my dog has bitten me, his primary carer in a "moment of madness". He wears a harness and a small leash at all times in the house, that means that I can move him away from the door/window when he becomes obsessed and can't stop barking and is going crazy, without touching him. This has meant he's stopped biting me. He much prefers this too, he's learnt that if I pull on the leash, he should come and be he does happily. We did a lot of work on getting him to associate "leash pressure" with something positive. I can write more about this but my replies are already super long. Also, I should have said above, we don't walk our dog. AT ALL, ever. He only runs in secure fields, we do a ton of mental games every day for stimulation but we no longer walk the dog. He doesn't need it and it makes everything worse. You don't need to walk your dog, you have a garden, use that instead.

I promise I'm not speaking from a place of having a "chilled and perfect" dog.

@minsmum

I was going to ask what happens if you just don't walk him, it sounds like it's no fun for you or him. The walk that is. I have a friend who doesn't walk her dog because he finds it too stressful, he pootles around the garden and she does enrichment games with him

That’s exactly what I was going to ask...

My reactive rottie wasn’t routinely walked for huge lumps of time sometimes, he got too trigger stacked and it was often better to give him a rest from outside ones and just keep him active and busy in the house and garden.

OP, I think you have been an amazing and loyal owner.

If you have it in you to give it one last shot, and are confident that everyone in hour household is safe, then try an actual behaviourist and medication. If that doesn't work, and you still have a dog that is in a constant state of stress, I think the fairest thing would be to PTS.

If you cannot raise the energy, or you feel that you, or anyone else in your home is at real risk of serious injury, PTS would be the safest course of action, and possibly also a release for an anxious, unhappy dog.

OP I would have a long chat with the vet who knows my dog best.

There may be a physical / neurological cause, but it may be untreatable

I have friends who have used behaviourists and have had zero success. iIt’s hard to find a behaviourist who actual has the knowledge and experience the job title implies.

You have done your best to give your dog what he needs in life, but sometimes it’s best to let them go.

@minsmum he’s a large breed, needs exercise but besides that, he wouldn’t be happy not being walked. He’s walks perfectly to heel, lies down, sits, stays on first command. He’s better ‘trained’- in that respect, than any other pet (Non-working) dog I know. Because I’ve been relentless with general obedience training but it hasn’t made the slightest bit of difference in his nervy temperament. And it should have done, by now.
@PollyPolson my trainer is not an internet trainer, don’t be so ridiculous to assume that I would think that’s the best trainer I could get for my aggressive dog. This trainer has years of experience in training working dogs abs rehabilitating aggressive dogs. He has evidence and he came highly recommended from a breed specific group I’m on. After I had tried all the techniques involving distraction and reward based that do not work on my dog and only made him worse.

@ruthieness thankyou for your kind words.

Is there any chance he might be in pain. I know someone who took on a young dog. Lovely little thing, but over time it got very aggressive towards their other dog, and attacked it several times. It was very reactive to noise, that set off the aggregation a lot. Turns out it was some muscle problem in the back or back legs (can't quite remember).

[quote roo2018]@minsmum he’s a large breed, needs exercise but besides that, he wouldn’t be happy not being walked. He’s walks perfectly to heel, lies down, sits, stays on first command. He’s better ‘trained’- in that respect, than any other pet (Non-working) dog I know. Because I’ve been relentless with general obedience training but it hasn’t made the slightest bit of difference in his nervy temperament. And it should have done, by now.
@PollyPolson my trainer is not an internet trainer, don’t be so ridiculous to assume that I would think that’s the best trainer I could get for my aggressive dog. This trainer has years of experience in training working dogs abs rehabilitating aggressive dogs. He has evidence and he came highly recommended from a breed specific group I’m on. After I had tried all the techniques involving distraction and reward based that do not work on my dog and only made him worse.[/quote]
Hmm I dont think I did say he was an internet trainer - I was saying that a vet and qualified behaviourist is the way to go. No need to be so defensive I was only giving some advice - which you can happily ignore.

It does sound like he is a old school trainer from things you have said.

Training working dog and rehabiliting aggressive dogs, if he is ex police or ex military he will without doubt make your dog worse and as you are experiencing see no improvement.

All I would ask is that you see the professionals not ask for advice on the internet.

"nervy temperament" will not be improved by obedience training ever.

@PollyPolson neither will “positive only” training, we we tried for a year, which made him worse in his aggression towards us.

@roo2018

You need to see a qualified behaviourist. A dog with the phobic levels of fear aggression you describe should have been in anti anxiety meds long ago - you cannot retrain an emotional response and your trainer should know this.

Medications do not sedate they address the underlying cause - fear/anxiety. Dogs that are fearful cannot learn - the circulating stress hormones inhibit learning. A behaviourist would know this, a trainer may not. By reducing his fear you can then work on training strategies to manage him, but training is utterly pointless with a very fearful/phobic dog as learning is not effective when an animal is very stressed.

Please seek out a veterinary clinical behaviourist through the APBC - they can fully assess him

Because I’ve been relentless with general obedience training but it hasn’t made the slightest bit of difference in his nervy temperament. And it should have done, by now.

If this is what your trainer has told you then they sound pretty clueless (they sound pretty rubbish generally for a fear aggressive dog to be honest)

As a human would you see a personal trainer for anxiety/phobias? Or would you see a doctor/therapist?

It's basically the same decision when selecting a trainer versus a behaviourist - you're dog's issue isn't skills-based it's emotional so you need to address his emotional state.

It does sound like the biggest barriers to getting your dog help are your own misconceptions and prejudice around behavioural modification and medication.

Please do some reading of the evidence - clinical behavioural science is a rigorous and evidence-based field of medicine.

I’m not going to keep explaining myself, it’s exhausting and I’m emotionally drained.
But I will say, I’m fully aware that obedience training doesn’t equate to emotional stability. What it does do, is help build trust and bond the relationship. The idea is that the dog looks to you instead of reacting on instinct.
I’m not new to this. I’ve researched until I’m blue in the face and haven’t found a shred of evidence that behaviourists are better at rehabilitating aggressive dogs than trainers with years of hands on experience. In fact, I’ve found the opposite to be true when it comes to real life experience and not what’s written in a textbook. Another dog/person wouldn’t care why my dog attacked them, whether it was fear driven or not, the consequences are still the same.
So no, I’m not willing to waste more time and money and effort in yet another “behaviour fix/training technique”. Because I’ve learned enough to know, that some dogs are just genetically unstable and management is the best you can hope for. Even “behaviourists” would tell you that.
I am open minded about medication but I’m not buying into yet another behaviour modification program to put off what seems to be the inevitable.

[quote roo2018]@PollyPolson neither will “positive only” training, we we tried for a year, which made him worse in his aggression towards us.[/quote]
Training will not help at all hence the need to get the advice of a Behaviourist - they change behaviour and emotion not train new skills

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman thing is, I’m not confident everyone in the house is safe. He has bitten both me and partner when something has triggered his fear/aggression. That’s why he’s crated most of the time or on a lead if not. Even then I’m worried about trying to restrain him without a muzzle. So then do we keep him muzzled whenever he’s out of his crate? That would be an easy solution for me in that I’d be more confident handling him but having him muzzled or crated the whole time leads me to question quality of life.
I just want to say, no one could love this dog more than I do. He’s attached to me and his issues aside, is the best dog I’ve ever had, our bond is lovely. It breaks my heart to even contemplate him not being a part of my family anymore and I never would have thought this was an option unless I saw what a rubbish life he has now and how it’s just gotten worse overtime be because he can’t be trusted to just be.

So you would rather end your dog’s life than get professional help that may actually cure the problem?
Wow. That’s awful OP.
Trainers can be shocking. But a truly effective behaviourist can make the difference to a dog that is on its last chance.
But if you’re not willing “to waste more time and money” to try and save your dog then I guess that’s it.
How sad.

There are worse fates for a dog than being pts.
That would be my decision with an aggressive dog.

OP you can't be best for your dog if you are considering him being PTS because you don't want to try medication.
Contact rescues who will be able to discuss all options and rehome to an adult household in the country where he will be free from the stress of urban noises.

@Wolfiefan

So you would rather end your dog’s life than get professional help that may actually cure the problem? Wow. That’s awful OP. Trainers can be shocking. But a truly effective behaviourist can make the difference to a dog that is on its last chance. But if you’re not willing “to waste more time and money” to try and save your dog then I guess that’s it. How sad.

I think this is a bit harsh. Living with an aggresive dog is hell. It is emotionally exhausting.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are willing to take money from people and exploit this. The OP has unfortunately been given incorrect information from the trainer and is obviously at their wits end.

They will have put hours into their dog and to see no result is heart breaking. You can see how desperate they feel. Not sure berating them is at all helpful.