Considering putting dog to sleep

[roo2018]

Please don’t flame me. I’m heartbroken just a thought of this but my dog is aggressive and I’ve tried everything. I’ve worked with 2 different trainers since we got him at 8 weeks old. His dog aggression started at 8 months, our old trainers methods wasn’t working so we sought a new one 6 months ago. His overall obedience is perfect. But his aggression has only gotten worse. He’s now growling/lunging at anyone who tries to talk to us on walks. He’s been muzzled since he bit both me and my partner after re-directing his aggression from other dogs onto us. He’s restricted to his crate most of the time in the house because he’s scared of outside noises so has to be on a lead and supervised whenever he’s out of the crate. We can only walk him on our street because he’s too nervy/reactive for other public places. This was only supposed to be short term until he improved and realised he doesn’t have to be so scared of everything, but it’s been going on for months and he has no quality of life. He’s constantly on alert and reacting to things. I feel like his aggression is worsening instead of improving.
I’m now considering having him put to sleep for his own benefit because I feel guilty that he has no quality of life. I have children who are not allowed around him unsupervised but they love him to bits and will be as heartbroken as me.
He is a lovely dog when he’s not scared and loves affection. I feel bad because I know it’s not his fault he’s like this. It’s probably a genetic issue given that we’ve tried everything and there aren’t any improvements.
What do I do? If I do have him put to sleep, do I just book him in the vets? Will they agree or make me feel guilty?
Any help/advice appreciated.

@Yaottie thankyou.

@roo2018 my first point of call would be a vet consultation, ask them for recommendations and see what they say.
I would also contact some rescues to explain your situation and see if they could open up a suitable foster environment if you needed to use it. This would then mean you know exactly what you are dealing with. I'd be contacting as many local ones as possible and the big ones to get a good range of honest opinions.
I'd then rent a field out at least once a week and let him have some really good off lead exercise and see if when you get home there is any difference. E.g if he's had 2 hours free running in a quiet and controlled environment how are his nerves when you get back to home.
I do feel that you may have some issues as he sees going home as a punishment as he is created as soon as he gets in. Whilst I understand why you are doing it it could be making him more nervous

Medication does not mean sedation or at least not in the way you think. I have a dog with severe fear based behaviour issues and our trainer recommendation anti anxiety meds (fluroxatine (sp?)) to start and then there's a few more to try after that. We got lucky on the second type of medication. Our dog only started responding to training once the meds kicking in.

It takes dogs (like humans) around 14 days to get used to the meds and dosage and it can make them more sleepy during that time. I recommend trying it as a last resort, then you'll know the right path better.

@dobbyssoc why are you so intent on believing I’m intent on putting him to sleep? Do you think an owner who got a trainer for her 8 week old pup and did everything they were told, watched him develop more and more fears that turned into aggression overtime, read everything they could, sought out a better trainer, travelled hours to see them multiple times. Stuck to a strict routine and training plans, liaised with people knowledgeable on his breeds and followed advice, every single day without fail for almost 2 years and you think I’ve come to this decision lightly?
It’s the hardest decision I’ve ever had to contemplate in my life. I’m against trying things I know won’t work because I know my dog and I know which methods do not work for him and only make him worse. I wasn’t asking for training advice because I know I don’t need that.

@ForeverInSunshine I will look into that then if it doesn’t mean sedation. Thankyou.

To be honest OP you sound like a committed owner who has exhausted every avenue. I think you need to PTS. I dont think he should be passed to a rescue as a pp suggested. Your behaviourist sounds very experienced. Realistically, you already know what you've got to do.

Ah, feel for you, I have a dog reactive dog, she just can't be trusted with other dogs, goes for them every chance she gets, can be big or small. So to have that with people must be very challenging. However as only two years old, that is the teenage years when lots of dogs go through bad / worse behaviour.
I think I would go to the vet and ask about anti anxiety medication. Even for six months or so might help until he matures a bit. Such a shame he has a loving home, I really hope the situation improves for you and your dog.

I had a GSD like this with extreme fear aggression. I consulted behaviourists and trainers. Used muzzles, crates, walked her at 2am, never left her alone, never went on holiday - the works. I was only able to do this because I was single and not working due to disability. She never improved in 11 years when she was pts in the end for unmanageable arthritis. I spent my life protecting her from the world and the world from her. OP - huge sympathies. Some dogs are just like this. If I had had children then, or was working, I'm not sure what I'd have done. I used to believe that pts was the worst option for a dog, but I don't now. I dread to think the damage she could have done with someone not able to cater for her problems.

@roo2018 I think the issue is a lot of people suggested medication or a behaviourist and (at the start) it was sort of a flat no rather than this is my thoughts behind this.
My issue is after being through this myself I can see some places which could make an improvement. It may not work for your dog but if you are that committed I would be trying it all.
Do you live in an urban environment? What exact noises does he react too? What happens in the period of time after you've closed the door following someone ringing the doorbell? What exactly does he do is it just barking and running about?
From an outsider there are lots more things that you could try but as I said at the start of the thread it was very much a blunt no to any helpful suggestions.

This sounds like a fear reaction.

A dog we used to meet on walks was frightened of a whole host of things.
The owner said as fast as she realised what new thing he was frightened of he would suddenly find a new thing to be added to the list

Ddog was put on Valium which really helped.

You sound like a very responsible and caring owner. I'm not going to say PTS is an easy option as an animal lover it isn't. Sometimes though putting a healthy animal down is the only option available due to anger issues, as harsh as it may seem. An anxious and frightened dog is an unpredictable one. I do hope however that there will be an alternative for you and your family and of course your dog, it may be a very lengthy process but as you seem as dedicated as you are I'm confident you will make the right desicion x

It was pretty clear from the off that the OP has done a huge amount to try to help her dog

@dobbyssoc I wouldn’t want to medicate him if it meant sedation because that would be selfish. He’s an active fun loving dog. I am going to speak to the vet as an option though if he can still have some quality of life with being medicated. I know behaviourists wouldn’t work because I know their methods and my trainer deals with dogs that behaviourists have recommended being put to sleep. I choose experience and results over accreditation.
It’s not as simple as him barking when somethings spooked him in the house. If I could just put him in the back then maybe they would be ok. But if he’s worked up enough he would bite me. That’s what happens when he’s too scared and it’s turned into aggression, he bites his owners. Thankfully, through careful management, he’s never had the opportunity to bite someone else but he absolutely would if he felt threatened. Sometimes I can get his lead and put him in his crate quite easily but it depends on how threatened he feels by whatever trigger has just taken place. I don’t trust him not to bite. It’s always a gamble. So the next stage is muzzle whenever he’s out of the crate. He absolutely hates his muzzle. It took a while to train him into it before we could use it for walks. He will accept it being put on, but he’s constantly trying to get it off or nudging it against your leg on a walk. That’s what makes me consider quality of life. Everything feels like management where his reactivity is concerned. To the point of micromanaging now. Distractions are impossible. He could not care less for anything if he saw another dog, he wants to get at it. That isn’t fear related I don’t think but the rest is.

I wouldn’t want to medicate him if it meant sedation because that would be selfish

The dog we knew who took Valium looked like he enjoyed his life more when on the medication as opposed to the fear you could see when ever we had met up before.

He became a very chilled dog and interacted more with the other dogs that he met.

@roo2018 there are lots of medications that aren't classed as sedatives.
We also now use the pet remedy spray and plug in which we found takes the edge off our girls anxiety. We have a bandana collar and it is sprayed on the bandana every morning.
We also use a thunder jacket which has really helped us in managing any flare ups.
I don't know how your house works but we now have a full door sized gate over our kitchen (back of the house) which she goes behind (if we are having a bad day) during the day, her crate is in there so she can choose to go into it if it's too much. This also means if she reacts to the door bell then she is contained and we can separate ourselves from her if we needed to.
Muzzles are tricky we in the end have a soft one that we can use in the house if we absolutely have to but touch wood we haven't had to use this in a long long time.

@roo2018

He’s has no health problems other than allergies. He will be 2 in November. The aggression has just worsened overtime. It’s obviously fear related, I can see the fear in his eyes and i watch it turn into aggression. He’s a large breed. It’s not easy to manage at all but my main concern is his lack of quality of life.

I know cats are different to dogs, so this is a long shot.... (skip to the end to avoid my long, boring, possibly totally irrelevant anecdote).

One of my girls, who I love beyond all reason, became ferociously aggressive about 8 months ago. She lives indoors, and would wildly attack my other cat and my partner and even me if I was the only person around. It was horrible - we ended up putting tall pet/baby gates up around the apartment to separate the cats at all times. My partner wouldn’t go near her and I know that he was concerned about the long term future. She remained loving and playful when alone with me, but could turn into a teeny 3.5kg monster in a split second.

I spoke to loads of vets and an animal behaviourist and In the end they recommended a number of drugs, starting with Prozac, which is supposed to be very effective with fear aggression in both dogs and cats. Once you get the dose right your pet should be exactly the same, just without the anxiety that triggers the aggression. I was uncertain, but willing to try (desperate) but it turned out to be impossible to get her to take the tablets.

BUT - my cat also has allergies, that predominantly affect her skin. We would normally get her flare ups treated with steroids whenever a sore appeared. Over lockdown I found myself trapped in the UK (I live in France) with my cats, and I took her to see a different vet who suggested a different, daily drug to suppress her immune system and stop the allergic flares completely. It has completely transformed her life. I think she must have been living with a constant low level of discomfort almost all of the time - she is so happy now! (And three times this week she has spontaneously crawled into my partner’s lap - after months of hissing and spitting at him, so he’s happy too).

Sorry, long post. Really just to say:

Make sure you fully rule out any physical cause, however minor seeming.
Do consider medication. I was really sceptical about the idea of Prozac but did a lot of research and there are a lot of success stories out there (both for Prozac and other drugs) - although it is no quick fix and would need to be used in conjunction with training / behavioural work.

My heart goes out to you. This is so hard. I wish you all the luck and strength in the world, wherever this journey ends.

@Oliversmumsarmy that sounds promising. Was that dog aggressive or just anxious? I’m wondering if it would work with fear aggression.

@dobbyssoc ours is far too far gone for plug ins, sprays etc. We tried all that before moving onto the next trainer. He isn’t easily calmed once he’s triggered by something and at 45kg is difficult to restrain so putting him in the crate is the only option but that doesn’t stop him reacting in there. He will still be frightened by the door/other noises while he’s in there.

I had a lab x collie, he was attacked when he was about 8 months. After that he would show aggression to other people, dogs, door bells everything. He was a good dog loves attention from his family also told the vet when I took him "oh he's aggressive be careful" when I collected him the vets said he's not aggressive he doesn't like being on a lead and restrained, which he was always good walking in the fields but could trust him around other people. I would definitely speak to your vet for advice even try advise from a rehoming centre (not to rehome). It's not an easy decision but get information from everyone (different sources) before you make the decision.

@MadCatLady71 thankyou got your kind words. My dogs allergies are also skin but he has daily antihistamines and a course of steroids during bad flare ups for that. It doesn’t change his behaviour.
I am going to book in the vets and enquire about medication though. If that helps in conjunction with his training then that would be great. I will try everything, I hate the idea of him not being here, I’m just trying to consider his quality of life above all else. He is a lovely dog when he’s calm, really affectionate, loving and playful. He’s certainly not all bad or it wouldn’t be this tough of a decision.

I would 100% go to a decent behaviourist. The FB group mentioned could give you information on one near you.
Unfortunately dog training isn’t as well regulated as it could be and there are lots of people peddling outdated or even downright dangerous advice.
I would definitely do a vet check and discuss medication.
However. If the long term choice is really a dog who lives in a state of distress in a cage (and please don’t think I’m blaming you for that. I really am not.) then actually I think PTS is a much kinder thing to do.
I’m so sorry. You sound so stressed and like you’re exhausted with it all.

Very very anxious that turned into aggression.

They were out one day and he saw something that he got scared of and despite being on a lead was cowering against a wall. When they tried to move on he refused to move so they went down to his level and tried to stroke him to calm him down and he started to snarl at them.
He was a quivering wreck.

You might not get the right dose or right medication immediately.

I know the first time they used medication it zonked him out but once they got the right medication he was a different dog.

I don’t think pet remedy is going to help here

OP, I would pts.

Yes you maybe be able to find that one in a million rescue space for him, but is passing on a fearful reactive dog to a new place with new people, really the kindest thing?

People are always supportive of euthanising dogs with physical injuries, but forget that physiological problems are just as harmful.
It is cruel to keep a dog alive that is in pain. A fearful reactive dog, to the extreme you are describing, is not happy.

Much better he goes to sleep surrounded by people he is comfortable with, rather than being forcefully seized by the police, pinned down and killed in an unfamiliar environment.

@roo2018 apologies I didn't explain that well. I'm saying now we are over the bad stages we are able to use pet remedy and thunder jackets rather than more 'forceful' methods etc
It was more a if you get over the initial with medication and behaviourist etc there is 'light' at the end of the tunnel

I think for your peace and mind, and your children's, I would try a highly recommended behaviourist and medication first.

If that doesn't work, you can definitely tell yourself and others that you've tried everything.