Considering putting dog to sleep

[roo2018]

Please don’t flame me. I’m heartbroken just a thought of this but my dog is aggressive and I’ve tried everything. I’ve worked with 2 different trainers since we got him at 8 weeks old. His dog aggression started at 8 months, our old trainers methods wasn’t working so we sought a new one 6 months ago. His overall obedience is perfect. But his aggression has only gotten worse. He’s now growling/lunging at anyone who tries to talk to us on walks. He’s been muzzled since he bit both me and my partner after re-directing his aggression from other dogs onto us. He’s restricted to his crate most of the time in the house because he’s scared of outside noises so has to be on a lead and supervised whenever he’s out of the crate. We can only walk him on our street because he’s too nervy/reactive for other public places. This was only supposed to be short term until he improved and realised he doesn’t have to be so scared of everything, but it’s been going on for months and he has no quality of life. He’s constantly on alert and reacting to things. I feel like his aggression is worsening instead of improving.
I’m now considering having him put to sleep for his own benefit because I feel guilty that he has no quality of life. I have children who are not allowed around him unsupervised but they love him to bits and will be as heartbroken as me.
He is a lovely dog when he’s not scared and loves affection. I feel bad because I know it’s not his fault he’s like this. It’s probably a genetic issue given that we’ve tried everything and there aren’t any improvements.
What do I do? If I do have him put to sleep, do I just book him in the vets? Will they agree or make me feel guilty?
Any help/advice appreciated.

@SimonJT I’m a human though. Not a canine. Dress it up as you wish but we don’t have the same processes as dogs do. You sound unhinged.

@SimonJT as I’ve said, take my dog and see what you can do with him. If not, your opinion is worthless to me cos you don’t have the slightest idea of what you’re saying.

OP I would not have a large, unpredictable, aggressive dog in a house with my children. You have clearly tried a number of things over several months. At this stage I would pts.

@tabulahrasa thankyou for putting the reality of the situation into words, where I could not. He is a handful, 45 kg of mostly muscle and difficult-although possible- to restrain. If I’m honest I hadn’t even thought about the general public until I posted this thread. I know I can restrain him physically if needed, but, if god forbid he came loose and managed to get near another dog, he would kill it In seconds. I have no doubt about they.

@worstwitch18 I don’t allow him around my children unless leached and under my control. But yes, it’s always a consideration about joe much I could ever really trust him to be around them. I don’t think he’d ever Attack them willingly, but when triggered, all bets are off.

Leashed. How. Damn autocorrect.

We went through similar with an anxious, aggressive german shepherd. We kept her and she lived to 15. She could not be walked. We had to take her to wilderness areas (which was only possible every couple of weeks) to be sure that we wouldn't meet anyone. She lived in one half of our house (which was fortunately large) and any visiting children or people she didn't know where not allowed past the kitchen. She had free run of the back garden and we had constant complaints about her losing her mind at walkers passing. She once got so angry with our neighbour just for being in his garden, she exploded through the wooden fence and he had to shut himself in his house. I'm amazed we weren't sued.

Every time someone came to the door (every time. Family or visitor) she peed herself. That lasted about 10 years. It did stop in the last 5.

We were able to avoid a tragedy, but honestly, if I was in my parents' shoes today, I would have her put down. We loved her so much, but it was just luck that something awful didn't happen. The vet used to treat her in the boot of our car because she definitely wasn't allowed inside.

She was genetically predisposed to be territorial and protective but it had just reached insane levels in her. She was from a kennel club breeder, champion bloodlines and we hired 2 different behaviorists. Sometimes it happens.

OP, anyone who would judge you if you've really done everything you can can offer to take her on. Lots of people thought they could help our dog ("I had a bad dog once, I fixed it") but they all admitted defeat.

The only thing we didn't do (it was the 90s, no internet) was try dietary changes. That wasn't suggested by anyone. Now as a dog owner, I can really see a difference in temperament when my dog is kept grain free. I think just like people, some dogs have sensitivities which affect mood and behavior. There are services that will hair test for sensitivities if you want to go down that road.

OP you have clearly made your decision so why post?
Lots of dogs are medicated. If your dog had a good temperament but broke its leg would you refuse vet treatment and pain relief because that's not what happens in the wild?
Dogs aren't PTS in the wild either if you want to be specific.
You have literally just said that behaviourists look at why it's happening and this is exactly what you need! Unless you understand why you cannot begin to address the cause.
Lots of us have had similar situations and have big dogs, if you really loved your dog like you say you so you'd be trying every single option which you are not.
Your dog doesn't live in the wild, he has never (from the sounds of it) lived in the wild so why treat him as such?
I said earlier rent out a field, let him run free there a couple of days a week, you said no, I said contact rescues, you said no, I said invest in a behaviourist, you said no, I said discuss medication, you said no! You are blinded by the idea you know best and from your updates you do not. You've decided that nothing can help so you're unwilling to try anything else.
Also for what it's worth this behaviour would probably be quite normal in the wild seeming as they don't have doorbells and all.
You are the problem. For the love of god contact some rescues as you are the only one not giving your dog a chance

Roo, your message come across as if you've given up and have had enough. Your defensiveness and unwillingness to take into consideration shows that much. Your insisting in genetics just shows that you have totally close your mind to him being rehabilitated.

We don't know what you've been through and indeed might be totally at the end of your tether to the point of it affecting your mental health quite significantly.
.but please, give this dog a chance. He is only one and maybe just maybe you haven't been the best owner for him and the trainer's approach was not right for him.

Give him to a rescue and let someone else have a go. He deserves that much. How can putting him to sleep be any better than giving him a chance, however small, to sort themselves out?

I've seen enough stories of dogs who had to be handed over by their owners due to agression totally turning around and becoming lovely dogs. Its not just dogs who gave been abused but also dogs who were very much loved but who didn't fit in with their family.

Once you hand him over, he is out of your hands and your life can resume to normality and maybe just maybe you'll hear in a few months that he is now with family and happy. Wouldn't that make you feel better?

OP I understand you are feeling desperate and it is of course you who is experiencing the reality of living with this dog, and not posters on the internet.
You have, through your own experiences, decided that a particular approach is the only way of helping your dog. Sadly in reality aversive methods will only escalate your dogs fear, aggression and anxiety. You are now seeing the resulting effects as your dog has escalated from dog aggression to human directed aggression.

Humane, science based training DOES work, with ALL dogs. You just perhaps haven’t found the best qualified person to help you yet. Teaching obedience and tricks will not help rebalance a dogs mind set.
One of my favourite behaviourists is Tom Mitchel Behavet. He is a vet, behaviourist and trainer. He will work with you and your dog, online if required, and teach you techniques to lower your dogs arousal, safely muzzle train your dog, reshape their brain to lower their arousal to help your dog become calm. He can also prescribe medications to help your dogs emotional state.
I know you want to believe in your new trainer but honestly in the long run they won’t help your dog if they use aversive methods and will add to your dogs stress which will in turn create a more unstable dog. I have seen dogs trained in this way showing multiple stress signals and the trainers claiming it is a success. Trainers disciplining growling and then saying the dog is now not aggressive as it’s not growling. It really is not, it is creating shutdown dogs that are only left with the option to react by biting.
I hope you can take this in the spirit it is intended, not as an attack or as criticism but as help.

I'm posting mostly to correct the misinformation being spread here in case it helps anyone else rather than as a response to the OP who already seems to have decided she knows best (not sure why bother posting for advice)

Although I’m open to medication, I know that’s a purely selfish option because he wouldn’t be given the chance of this in the wild, he’d have to adjust and unfortunately he couldn’t care less

Firstly domestic dogs are not wild and nothing we do to/for them is wild. No veterinary care is natural. So using the wild or natural as a reason for not providing medical care to a domestic dog is faulty logic. Would you use the same faulty logic if he was painful?

But I still won’t dress it up as “behaviour modification or dealing with the root cause” because fact is, they are canines, they don’t have the same emotional lability or processing that humans do, as much as we don’t like to admit that, it’s true.

Which emotions are you referring to? Dogs certainly experience prime emotions - fear, anxiety, pleasure etc. There's no evidence they experience more complex emotions such as guilt as that requires an understanding of social norms, and there's mixed evidence on grief. But as you're dealing with a fearful dog, the relevant emotion is fear and yes dogs and all other mammals certainly experience that - it is highly evolutionarily conserved. You're still fixated on retraining behaviours rather than understanding that you need to focus on changing your dog's emotional state: Two very different approaches. It's a shame considering the abject failure of your approach that you aren't willing to even consider an alternative that has years of scientific evidence supporting it.

I’m a human though. Not a canine. Dress it up as you wish but we don’t have the same processes as dogs do. You sound unhinged.

Which processes are you referring too? Fear processing in dogs and humans is almost identical - amyghdyla activation, HPA axis activation, sympathetic nervous system activation, behavioural and physical responses indicating fear including avoidance and aggression. so this statement is simply plain wrong, and you're now insulting other posters on the basis of your own misunderstandings.

Honestly @roo2018 I'm not really sure why you posted this thread. You seem determined to deliberately ignore any rational evidence-based advice and stick to your own misconceptions whilst throwing insults at others.

Because she wanted to be told its okay to have her dog PTS.

And it is, but I think the op should have been more clear that she was looking for support for a decision she'd already made and not suggestions for things that might help.

Having read your updates I think there are 3 separate issues going on that I think need looking onto.

Firstly he does have health issues as he has allergies. Are you sure all of his allergies are handled when he takes his antihistamine. Could he need a stronger antihistamine (don’t know if you can get them in different strengths) or to up the amount.
Or could it be something in his food that needs cutting out. I. E put him on a vegetarian diet or a wheat free diet etc

Secondly, you know his triggers but do you know all of his triggers. Even something simple (going by other dog walkers dog) like someone reading a newspaper, a ball, a certain mug, a chair all used to set him off.

Thirdly you mentioned the bond you have. Could this be a huge trigger for him.
We know when out on a walk he can turn into this snarling dog but is he so bonded to you that anyone or anything that he feels could be a threat to you needs to be kept away.
I am no animal behaviourist I just remember seeing a very small dog on one of these dog training programmes who would fly at other family members and the general public if they got close to their “person” This dog even bit their person if they got spooked by something else or had got themselves wound up and was in the middle of a biting and snarling episode.

Try him on medication as I think that would be the kindest thing to do at this stage.
He obviously has huge anxiety and it is overwhelming him.
It is the same for us humans. If you have anxiety to such an extent that you cannot leave the house then a doctor will prescribe medication and therapy. Dogs deep down are no different. They just can’t explain exactly what the issues are or how they see the world

In that case, as I've already said, I think you should put the dog to sleep @roo2018

You're tired, scared, living in a situation where you're constantly juggling your children's safety. It's reasonable to PTS the dog. Do that and accept what you've tried didn't work.

But don't use misinformation and faulty logic to try and slander an entire profession to 'justify' your decision, or to generate excuses as to why you don't want to attempt other avenues. That doesn't help anyone.

In a situation where all avenues have been tried, I would agree that pts is the best option, and I often think people on MN are very overly sensitive about animals being pts, but you still haven't answered wether he has had vet checks to see if he might be in pain/have an illness, and a good point someone else made was is he neutered?
The only thing you have tried is trainers, but if you feel you have done enough, perhaps try and re-home him with someone who does have the time and energy to commit to trying to help the dog.

Owning a dog is supposed to enhance your life. The stress levels in your home for all of you must be unbearable. Mumsnet dog people LOVE a behaviorist but you said you've already tried that so until you say a behaviourist has told you to pts then they won't be satisfied. Id put to sleep. You've tried everything, and this is a persistent biter - your children, you and anyone else this dog comes into contact with are not safe. Even the dog himself isn't safe. Id pts without a hint of guilt op. Some dogs are just wired wrong for living in our society. You see it with horses - but if you had a consistently aggressive and dangerous horse that resisted all attempts to train it, you'd put it down because a dangerous horse can kill - as can a dangerous dog.

People always suggest rehoming as well, as though there's an absolute plethora of excellent resourceful homes queuing up to take aggressive dogs that have bitten on a number of occasions. They don't exist, at least not in the numbers that mumsnet would have you believe. My bil had a large aggressive dog and he rehomed it to a person who said they would offer the dog such a home. He said it must not be around children because it has growled at/tried to bite a child, and they promised faithfully it wouldn't be. Then it bit a child in the new home and got passed on again. God knows where it is now. He should have taken responsibility and had the dog pts himself rather than pass it on.

@ChewChewIsMySpiritAnimal

Owning a dog is supposed to enhance your life. The stress levels in your home for all of you must be unbearable. Mumsnet dog people LOVE a behaviorist but you said you've already tried that so until you say a behaviourist has told you to pts then they won't be satisfied. Id put to sleep. You've tried everything, and this is a persistent biter - your children, you and anyone else this dog comes into contact with are not safe. Even the dog himself isn't safe. Id pts without a hint of guilt op. Some dogs are just wired wrong for living in our society. You see it with horses - but if you had a consistently aggressive and dangerous horse that resisted all attempts to train it, you'd put it down because a dangerous horse can kill - as can a dangerous dog.

The OP hasn’t used a behaviourist as she/he thinks that behaviourists are essentiallt criminals who steal your money. She/he has said what thhe dogs triggers are, but believes working on those triggers is not the way to alter behaviour. She/he also won’t seek vet treatment as medication isn’t available to wild dogs so believes it shouldn’t be used on domestic dogs.

Yeah Simon you're one of the dog nuts who I've seen on more than one occasion put a dog above children so I'm not going to waste my time responding to you.

@ChewChewIsMySpiritAnimal

Yeah Simon you're one of the dog nuts who I've seen on more than one occasion put a dog above children so I'm not going to waste my time responding to you.

You must have confused me with the wrong person, I have only commented on this thread and the June/July puppy thread and the now deleted thread about the dog who bit the owners son, I don’t think I have ever posted on any other dog thread on MN. You’re more likely to find me in the cat area.

If you had read the comments on the now deleted thread about the dog who bit the owners son you would know that I was very clear that the dog could no longer be around the posters child, other children or even adults who didn’t have good mobility etc. Unless you think removing a dog and preventing access for children is in some bizarre way not putting children first.

I know the op has well gone

This post however is just amazing. How any of you feel you are confident and qualified to give out advice saying the dog should be pts when NONE of you have seen the situation in RL is crazy.

Mumsnet is certainly full of amazing people with incredible knowledge

OP you are talking about dogs like they are wild pack wolf's. Domesticated dogs are not wild animals.
The things you have said make me worry what methods your trainer has you using.

This sounds so hard. I wouldn't have this dog in my house with children though.

You should surrender the dog to a specialist rescue and rehabilitation charity.
Putting an animal to sleep because you have reached the end of your tether is not a fitting end to his life and a waste of the work you’ve put in thus far.
Let someone else try to change things for him.