Considering putting dog to sleep

[roo2018]

Please don’t flame me. I’m heartbroken just a thought of this but my dog is aggressive and I’ve tried everything. I’ve worked with 2 different trainers since we got him at 8 weeks old. His dog aggression started at 8 months, our old trainers methods wasn’t working so we sought a new one 6 months ago. His overall obedience is perfect. But his aggression has only gotten worse. He’s now growling/lunging at anyone who tries to talk to us on walks. He’s been muzzled since he bit both me and my partner after re-directing his aggression from other dogs onto us. He’s restricted to his crate most of the time in the house because he’s scared of outside noises so has to be on a lead and supervised whenever he’s out of the crate. We can only walk him on our street because he’s too nervy/reactive for other public places. This was only supposed to be short term until he improved and realised he doesn’t have to be so scared of everything, but it’s been going on for months and he has no quality of life. He’s constantly on alert and reacting to things. I feel like his aggression is worsening instead of improving.
I’m now considering having him put to sleep for his own benefit because I feel guilty that he has no quality of life. I have children who are not allowed around him unsupervised but they love him to bits and will be as heartbroken as me.
He is a lovely dog when he’s not scared and loves affection. I feel bad because I know it’s not his fault he’s like this. It’s probably a genetic issue given that we’ve tried everything and there aren’t any improvements.
What do I do? If I do have him put to sleep, do I just book him in the vets? Will they agree or make me feel guilty?
Any help/advice appreciated.

[ruthieness]

I would say "trust your own judgement" - - no need to wait until maybe your stressy dog bites someone and the decision is made for you, you love your dog and I think that gives you the right and duty to decide what is best. No one else gets to judge.

[bodgeitandscarper]

Dogs are euthanised usually for illness. Illness can be mental as well as physical and a fearful dog is an unhappy dog. It sounds like your dog doesn't have a great life and if you've tried all that you can then euthanasia would be kinder than a torturous life lived in fear. Not an easy position to be in, but pts wouldnt be wrong imo.

[GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]

OP, if you feel unsafe, you will feel nervous, and your dog will pick up on that. My dog picks up on me being in a grump about something unrelated to her and any training session never goes as planned.

When your dog had bitten you, has it been nip-and-release or has he drawn blood or has it been more than one bite at a time? The Dunbar bite scale might help you - the version I found gives an assessment of the odds of rehabilitation (and Ian Dunbar is a trainer of many, many years standing and much expertise).

In your shoes I would be torn between PTS (before somebody else in the family or outside it gets bitten, perhaps very badly depending on how he bites) and one last ditch try with medication. If the medication didn't show signs of providing a radical improvement within a set time frame (discussed with a behaviourist who would know how long the meds would take to work) I would then PTS. It's not life for the dog and not for you or your family either.

I wouldn't judge you for taking either option. We have a dog who could, when younger, be a bit of an arse with younger dogs (lots of barking and bluff) and that was stressful enough. You must be knackered.

[tabulahrasa]

Honestly, I would not walk him for at least 3 days and see if he’s less reactive in the house - do other things with him inside to tire him out.

The more often they’re stressed, the more likely they are to react to the next trigger....

And if nothing else, it gives you a break.

[tabulahrasa]

@Wolfiefan

So you would rather end your dog’s life than get professional help that may actually cure the problem?
Wow. That’s awful OP.
Trainers can be shocking. But a truly effective behaviourist can make the difference to a dog that is on its last chance.
But if you’re not willing “to waste more time and money” to try and save your dog then I guess that’s it.
How sad.

It’s really hard work living with a really reactive dog, in all ways, emotionally, physically - it restricts your life so much.

You’ve got giant dogs... imagine, like properly imagine every time you try to walk one, it freaks out at something barely within sight and will try to overpower you to get to it and then will bite you when you do successfully win that wrestling match.

And, it’s still your dog, so on top of the physical effort of all that, the stress of doing it, the stress of people seeing you have to do it... you’re also stressed because your dog is that upset.

It’s... honestly, just awful sometimes.

[ForeverInSunshine]

@tabulahrasa while I agree with everything you've said, it is emotionally exhausting, it does change your life. DH and I are not living the life with expected when we got a dog, however the OP is not engaging with suggestions that are not, "there there, it's ok to PTS your dog". She needs to get her dog meds, allow it to decompress appropriately from the stress it's currently under and then follow a plan by a + reinforcement behaviouralist. Then she'll know if her dog is truly one of those who are "genetically" wrong. Which by the way, is not a thing, unless the dog has had brain issues like seizures or tumours.

[tabulahrasa]

[quote ForeverInSunshine]@tabulahrasa while I agree with everything you've said, it is emotionally exhausting, it does change your life. DH and I are not living the life with expected when we got a dog, however the OP is not engaging with suggestions that are not, "there there, it's ok to PTS your dog". She needs to get her dog meds, allow it to decompress appropriately from the stress it's currently under and then follow a plan by a + reinforcement behaviouralist. Then she'll know if her dog is truly one of those who are "genetically" wrong. Which by the way, is not a thing, unless the dog has had brain issues like seizures or tumours.

[/quote]
Maybe she needed a rant, maybe she might look at the suggestions later... maybe she’s worn out and done and is definitely having her dog PTS, I don’t know

But if she is done, I don’t think it’s awful.

I think it’s a shitty position to be in, but understandable.

[JayAlfredPrufrock]

Dogs are meant to add to the sum of your enjoyment.

I rescued a dog who was a sad bastard. I cared for him and cherished him but he brought no joy to my life and had no joy in his. When he started attacking me and my family we coped for a while but eventually when we could no longer get into the house decided it was time.

I now have a joy bringer.

[KDOWKIZO]

I think you have done so much and tried so hard and put so much effort in. I honestly think although to pts sleep will bring deep pain and sadness you must be at peace that you have tried as hard as you can given all the circumstances that you know better than anybody. I think it is the right thing to do for the dog, for you and for your children. The dog cannot be happy and to live life constantly in such a state is not a life to live. You have done so much and sought professional help and have reached the end of your journey with this. Your children could have a friend over or get hurt themselves and that is not fair to them and you would never forgive yourself. It feels somebody getting seriously hurt is inevitable with a big aggressive dog. I think that is the choice you have to make, can you live with that more than can you live with pts. As a mum you have to protect yourself and your family.
I would, if you felt it right, speak once more to the vet just to feel 100% that you have checked it isnt a health problem , but then I would have a couple of days with the dog at home and not going out at all. Make the appointment, take him to the vets, give him his last hug and let you and him find peace.
It will be incredibly sad and a awful experience but he is dangerous and is an accident waiting to happen.dont let his last moments being hurting somebody and pts without you there. Give him the final gift of having you with him in as calm a way as you can.
He deserves peace and so do you. You have done everything, let him go. You are a kind and strong person to do this and a responsible adult.
Big hugs xx

[Wolfiefan]

@tabulahrasa I agree it’s an awful situation. And I am in no way saying the OP hasn’t tried. That very clearly isn’t the case. Very very far from it.
But medication isn’t sedation.
And an inexpert trainer isn’t a behaviourist.
It’s very clear this is horribly stressful and the OP doesn’t want the dog to suffer.
But in all honesty I couldn’t live with myself if I hadn’t explored every option.
Sadly after all that the OP may still feel PTS is the best option.
But I would want to at least try a behaviourist.

[LochJessMonster]

OP, hide the thread, give him a final day of being absolutely spoilt, have him PTS and move on knowing you have tried more than most other people would have and finally both you and your dog can finally have peace.
Your dog is not happy. You are both on edge at all times, never able to settle. Your dog is exhausted. You are exhausted.

[Mrbay]

Have you had him scanned? The overly reactive behaviour could be an issue in his brain, a friend had a dog like this and it turned out to be a untreatable brain condition.
Good luck, just remember animals don't think like us, they don't think of the future just of the now.

[tabulahrasa]

“But in all honesty I couldn’t live with myself if I hadn’t explored every option.
Sadly after all that the OP may still feel PTS is the best option.
But I would want to at least try a behaviourist.”

See... would I try a behaviourist? Yes, probably, I’m the numpty who kept my dog for years just managing him after realising his issues weren’t going to get better and only had him PTS when it was for medical reasons.

But I don’t think people should feel guilty if they decide they’re not up for any more options when they’re living with a dog that’s that much hard work.

[Vaughan32]

Has he been neutered, OP? Castration can be a good way to lower aggression. Good luck with a difficult situation.

[QuestionableMouse]

@tractorvancar

To be honest OP you sound like a committed owner who has exhausted every avenue. I think you need to PTS. I dont think he should be passed to a rescue as a pp suggested. Your behaviourist sounds very experienced. Realistically, you already know what you've got to do.

It doesn't sound like the dog has seen a vet and some health problems can cause aggressive behaviour. It could be pain somewhere, for example. My dog went through a snappy anxious phase when he had a bad tooth.

The @roo2018 also doesn't say if the dog is neutered which may help.

A really good vet check up would be my first choice.

[Veterinari]

@roo2018

I think you're better off putting the dog to sleep. Assuming a vet check has ruled out chronic pain or other potential triggers, your dog is showing classic fear/phobia behaviours which are generalising. A good trainer should recognise that and know that fear cannot be trained out. You obviously don't understand how behavioural meds or clinical veterinary behaviourists work and it's easy to dismiss something you don't understand but if you are interested in developing as an owner /trainer I'd suggest keeping an open mind and being open to learning. One of the reasons you're having problems is because you're wedded to a faulty premise:

The idea is that the dog looks to you instead of reacting on instinct.

Yes this is good general impulse control training. It doesn't work for fear responses though because the amygdala is activated during fear and will ALWAYS override frontal lobe processing which governs intentional behaviour. A dog with an activated amygdala can ONLY react - they cannot cognitively process or learn. in order to facilitate cognitive control you have to reduce the fear response - this can usually only be done with medication.

I’m not new to this. I’ve researched until I’m blue in the face and haven’t found a shred of evidence that behaviourists are better at rehabilitating aggressive dogs than trainers with years of hands on experience

Then you'll likely be familiar with everything I'm saying already, but If you're referring to fear aggression then there's a lot of peer reviewed literature - so much so in fact that clinical trials have been done and based on this evidence, licensed veterinary medications have been produced.

If you search google scholar for dog fear aggression medication you'll find many studies demonstrating that dogs who are properly diagnosed and their fear treated appropriately have faster and better treatment outcomes. This is where clinical veterinary behaviourists have an advantage. Trainers are not trained in neurobiology, neurochemistry, emotional or motivational states, pharmacology, endocrinology or any of the other scientific subjects required to effectively manage behavioural pathology. Out of interest when was your dog neutered (is he neutered?) I'm sure you'll be aware of the impact of the sex hormones on emotional maturity and fear aggression - this is a common problem in dogs neutered before they're emotionally mature. Understanding the interplay between all of these different systems is essential to successfully managing behavioural pathology. It really is the difference between a human patient seeing an occupational therapist versus seeing a psychiatrist for chronic anxiety.

Of course you may want to dismiss behavioural science as 'textbook stuff' but both the scientific evidence and the practical evidence is clear. If you choose to ignore it, that's your call.

In any situation, there's always the potential for a therapy to fail and owner compliance is the biggest requirement for the success of a clinical behaviour modification plan. if you don't fully commit to a clinical behaviour plan then the risks of failure are magnified. In this case, it does sound as if it would be an uphill battle for many reasons - it sounds as if you're determined to value your own opinion and experience over years of scientific and medical evidence and expert consensus. You're obviously tired and a bit scared of your dog Which is of course not a situation anyone wants to be in. and quite right in that dogs with complex disorders including anxiety disorders often need longterm management. Most chronic psychological disorders aren't cured but managed and so realistic goals are necessary.

You don't say what breed your dog is or where he was sourced from but assuming a breeder I'd suggest feeding back to them about these problems if, as you suggest, there may be a genetic component further breeding from his parents would be irresponsible.

[Veterinari]

@Vaughan32 what's your evidence for that and what type of aggression are you referring to?

Your post contradicts the evidence to my knowledge, except in the case of entire male-male aggression which doesn't seem to be he trigger for this dog.

[roo2018]

Oh god I’m still going to have to keep explaining myself until you see I’ve tried everything. I’m not against behaviourists, I just know enough to know what I’m dealing with is a nervy unstable large breed dog that although I love, can’t be trusted around other dogs/people. The people reacting is new, within the past free months whilst others behaviour has been improving. I know my dog and I know if there’s a behaviour modification technique, I’ve tried it. To no avail. I can manage him, but god forbid if he ever got loose, he could do some serious damage. I’ve been bitten by this dog more times than I can count, I’ve still never considered giving up on him. I’m only considering it now because of his lack of quality of life.

[SimonJT]

So you’d rather kill him than use a qualified behaviourist and a decent vet consultation?

If you knew what you were doing you would hve identified triggers, started dealing with them and modify your own behaviour around the dog. If your dog has only been people reactive for the past three months how have you tried everything?

[roo2018]

@Veterinari you seem to have an agenda so I’ll welcome you to make my dog and try things that haven’t already been tried. I’m not getting my hopes up again but yet another technique that doesn’t work in real life scenarios. I’ve looked into behaviourists and what their techniques entail with aggression, none of it is anything I haven’t tried.
I’ve messaged my trainer to see if he will board him for a week to work on him. I’m not holding out hope because he has no complaints about our ability to handle/train our dog but we will see.

[roo2018]

@SimonJT because I’ve been working on him over a year and a half and although everything else has improved, his fear reactivity has not.
I did a search while I was waiting for replies to thus thread and no one judges when a “behaviourist” recommends putting to sleep. Why is that? Do you think that maybe, people with years of rehabilitating aggressive dogs could possibly know what is a genetic issue and what is not, with having hands on experience?

[roo2018]

@SimonJT you’d literally have to live in our house to see his list of triggers, he’s unpredictable when spooked. And no, I wouldn’t rather have him to sleep than go to a rip off merchant who’s only interest is behaviour psychology books with no real experience of rehabilitating dogs. If they do, then send them my way, cause I’m yet to find one.

[roo2018]

I’m just not gonna get my hopes up on yet another expert who has no evidence other than ‘what’s behind the aggression and treating that’ it’s bull. Dogs weren’t born to be on Prozac, they lived in the real world and had to adjust their behaviour accordingly.
Although I’m open to medication, I know that’s a purely selfish option because he wouldn’t be given the chance of this in the wild, he’d have to adjust and unfortunately he couldn’t care less.
But I still won’t dress it up as “behaviour modification or dealing with the root cause” because fact is, they are canines, they don’t have the same emotional lability or processing that humans do, as much as we don’t like to admit that, it’s true. Genetic temperament is what it is, a result of backyard breeding who don’t temperament test their dogs. Sometimes there’s no amount of behaviour modification techniques that can account for that. And any “behaviourists” that told you otherwise, wouldn’t be worth the ink they was written on.

[SimonJT]

Humans wouldn’t be given medication in the wild, so I’m assuming you have never taken any form of medication.

You’re coming across as bonkers.

[roo2018]

And I really didn’t want to get into this as a debate but I’ve been left no choice here. I am not taking the “easy route” and dismissing behaviourists/medication by any stretch of the imagination and if you believe that, then you’ve never had an aggressive dog in your hands. I’ve tried everything. I’m not doing “Behaviourists” because I’ve had my hopes up so many times seeing improvements, only for it skin to fall to shit when real life occurs aka having a lorry drive down your street.
I posted this thread because I’ve tried everything, putting to sleep wouldn’t be an option if I thought it was fixable but I don’t. I was not wanting judgemental, condescending, patronising opinions from people who have never met; nor would probably dare to put their hands on my dog. If you are willing then PM me, if not, then save your virtue signalling for elsewhere.