Urgent help needed please - dog bit toddler.

[WheresMaHairyToe]

Rescued my dog 7 months ago, he was a stray and is between 3 and 5 years old. Lab/ lurcher type mongrel.
He has been wonderful - quick response to training in the home, not quite 100% on toileting but getting there, fantastic with my kids (all over 8.)
Today, we were at the beach for a couple of hours with my 3 plus 5 assorted niece and nephews. Dog completely fine.
Got home, everyone settled, kids playing in garden. Dog took himself to bed in another room. 2 year old niece followed. Nobody witnessed what happened, but niece was bitten on the face. Small cut and bruising - bad enough!
My brother wants the dog out of my house. He isn't insisting on PTS. I rang 4 shelters, all said he was not able to be rehomed, so would be destroyed.
I've put him in kennels to give us all some breathing space, and am waiting on two shelters calling me back. He had never shown a single sign of aggression before this, but apparently did not growl before biting. My brother got to him seconds after the bite, and said he was also aggressive to him.
I got home about 10 mins after bite to a very unhappy dog.
I am heart broken, I don't know what to do. I am considering building him an outdoor run and muzzling him when he's near children, but that seems awful.
Sorry if this is incoherent. I'm in a bit of a state!
Please help with advice if you can! Or if you know of a no- kill shelter anywhere in NI.

Do some people here expect a dog to take what ever we throw at them? Seriously? Sounds like your 'd'bro has been exceptionally lax wrt allowing his children unsupervised around his dog and thought he could be like that with anyone else's dog too. He's to blame.

One of my mums dogs is very placid. Adores my 21mo ds. Just lays there, calm. Never flinches at his enthusiastic greetings, not very gentle hands etc. But I'd never leave them alone together. Again. Your poor bloody dog.

I was once chased by three pitbulls when their owner left the gate open. They chose to not only come close, barking, but chase my then 7 year old self until I climbed a tree. That's the type of dog that should be PTS. No, I wasn't traumatised for life, nor have issues with dogs or pitbulls in special.

A few years later, we got a family dog, and she snapped at my then 6 year old brother. She was sleeping and DB pushed his face into hers. She reacted. He wasn't traumatised for life. In fact, Ddog and he get along amazingly.

If your DB thinks the dog is a threat to your DN, simply meet somewhere else. And teach her to bloody respect a dog's space.

Fucking hell, this place amazes me sometimes

The dog needs to be rehomed, and I say this as someone who has had dogs her entire life. Your niece was bitten on the face fgs. Even when our dogs have been hassled they've never done anything more than a warning growl and they take themselves elsewhere.

Could it have been a 'bang' from his teeth rather than a bite? I know when my dog is excited he can jump up with his mouth open and leave an impression on my arm, but no way is it a bite. If the dog was lying down and she disturbed him and he swung his head round and banged her face with his teeth that could leave a mark. A proper bite would leave far more serious damage.

Poor dog. And I hope your niece is ok. She should have been supervised.

When I was little I was attacked by our Alsatian. I was trying to ride on his back like he was a horse and I was pulling him about and hurting him. It was NOT the dog's fault that I was attacked, it was my parent's fault for not watching what I was doing properly.

There is no need to rehome or PTS. Your brother's kids don't live with you, do they?

What do people think a scared dog should do when it is being annoyed? It can't go and lock itself in a room to get some space. Dogs attack when they feel threatened.

Huge lack of compassion and understanding of dogs from some previous posters

Agreed with Ursula that it sounds like more of a warning snap than a proper bite, as that would have been very serious.

OMG the dog love is ridiculous on here.

If my sister's dog bit my 2 year old in the face and she didn't get rid of the dog by hook or by crook, I would never speak to her again. A human child I'm related to or a dog I don't know the background of? That's the choice OP.

And if they don't have dogs or know about dogs it was your responsibility to say toddlers and dogs should never be left alone together. I would not have a creature in my house I didn't feel was safe to be left with a member of my family.

Sounds like you're taking this seriously and responsibly while also wanting to do the best for your dog... Well done for trying so many shelters so quickly.

Please do also try dog behaviourists. Your local vets will almost certainly have contacts. I would ring several and just like with shelters, don't give up if the first one you speak to advises PTS. If you do decide to keep the dog, with the help of a behaviourist, your brother should be there for some of the sessions so he can understand how this happened.

Our dog gets very stressed when unfamiliar children approach her if she's deliberately retreated somewhere to be away from them, and she doesn't have the excuse of a rescue background.

Agree with plantsitter!

I think you've done the best thing you could by splitting get him up from potential risks. Sadly it does sound like the best result would be to rehome to a house without children.

It was probably that he was hot or tired and needed space but got a toddler in his face. Unless you can guarantee that won't happen again, you can't keep him.

So sorry you're going through this. It would break my heart if either of my dogs did this.

I would definitely NOT PTS or rehome either. Please don't do that and please go and get him from kennels tomorrow and bring him home. He is your dog not your brothers and it is your dogs home, he does not deserve to be thrown out and confused even more. You do not know exactly what happened (I also don't quite understand why you weren't in the house when this happened - why was your brother who doesn't know the dog in the house without you - that may also have unsettled the dog?) and whether she had poked, prodded or even made him jump when he had already dozed off and it was unintentional snap. I am also sure your brother storming in there on hearing his daughter cry (understandable in the circumstances) probably didn't help to calm the dog down and may have not given the dog a chance to retreat easily which may be why your brother says he was aggressive to him too, the dog was probably demonstrating a fear reaction as he knew he had done wrong by catching her . What I would do is absolutely not let the dog near small people ever again. Make sure he had a safe and enclosed area (door locked) so no small child can get in his space if they come around and when out, get one of those yellow "I need space" dog jackets to warn people to keep their children away and keep him on lead with you (or an adult) at all times. I am speaking about this as someone who had the same thing happen. But it was my dog and my daughter. Entirely my fault. Dog had taken himself off, I didn't see her follow him, she tried to move him off the sofa and woke him up very suddenly and he bit her face. It broke the skin and their was bruising but it was neither of their faults. It was mine and my husbands for not seeing her go after him. We were devastated but once we had calmed down and thought about it getting rid of the dog was never an option, we just came up with a system to divide the house up with stairgates to give them their own space and they continued to live together until we lost him. He did love her and she him, she had just been too young to realise that making a dog jump like that can result in an instinctive snap and he happened to catch her, loads of people are the same when woken up very suddenly - it's just that people tend to swear or wave arms or something rather than bite. He never did anything like that again and when she was several years bigger she would walk him and fuss him without any concerns. We had him for another 10 years until we lost him to old age and my daughter was as devastated to lose his as the rest of us. She got over it, she doesn't even remember it now when you ask her (the scar has faded now and you can't see it), we have several other dogs now and she is always with them, playing with them and does agility classes with them so it certainly didn't have a long term effect on her. Please don't put him down over this incident or rehome him. Just be sensible and put robust measures in place to ensure that situation can not arise again. He does not deserve to lose his home or his life over this. I will also add that my Dad (having had dogs all his life so he is very experienced with them and retired, lives on his own so no children there) has taken on two different dogs at different times under similar circumstances - both were going to be PTS by their owners for biting a young child - Dad took them on as their last chance (one via a dogs rehoming organisation that we know and one I heard about it through a friend of mine and contacted them and said Dad would take him). Dad has one of them for six years until he lost her through cancer and never had the slightest issue with her at all (she was an absolutely stunning dog!) so concluded that it must have just been a one off situation that caused the problem in her previous house and the latest boy (quite a nervous dog but he is getting better and better with a very clear routine and expectations plus long walks each day) for eighteen months now and again have had no sign of aggression issues. Both of them visit our house with our dogs and older children and we were very cautious with them at first, but treated properly they have been fine and the girl particularly became a firm friend with my children! My point is you can handle the situation, you can make this work and your boy deserves that chance.

Millions of dogs happily co-exist with tiny tots pulling their ears, poking their eyes out, pinching, grabbing and any other number toddler behaviours, whether in their beds, next to their food bowls or in a room full of screaming little party people

Unfortunately it's ignorance like this that has lead to the increase in dog bites to children. And the change to the DDA to include dogs in the home - they are the greatest risk to children's as adults ignore the warning signs and think they're 'happy' until they reach biting point. No dog is 'happy' with the sort of interactions you describe - they're just learning to escalate their distress and their aggressive behaviours to the point that somebody pays attention.

PLEASE read the links I posted

Parents must supervise child-dog in interactions appropriately

I can't add anything that vetinari hasn't already said

Poor child but poor dog.

First and foremost your dog needs a check up with a vet to rule out any physical reasons for his reaction. A dog that is sore or in pain is much more likely to snap than one that isn't and it can sometimes be the first sign anything is amiss.

I'd also find a decent behaviourist or trainer to work with you and your dog whilst you either decide what you're going to do or wait for an appropriate rescue space. Do bear in mind that not all rescues are created equal and just because one will take on a dog with a bite history doesn't mean they should, make sure you do your homework before handing him over. If you go through one of the organisations on this list you can be sure of finding someone reputable who will be using up to date, science based methods and will be able to advise you on the best way to manage the situation either long term or in the short term whilst you wait for a rescue space.

In the meantime I would highly recommend posting on this FB group for advice on how to handle things until you can see a professional in person. It's run by some very highly respected trainers/behaviourists and they may also be able to recommend someone local to you. They also have lots of excellent information in their files section on managing dogs and children which is well worth a look through.

Why on earth was a toddler left unsupervised with a dog, especially one that had been out and surrounded by loads of kids all day, and had taken himself off for some peace and quiet? sad She could have trodden on him, put her face right in his, grabbed his head, anything.

This this this!

And listen to Vetinari

Poor, poor dog.

Millions of dogs happily co-exist with tiny tots pulling their ears, poking their eyes out, pinching, grabbing and any other number toddler behaviours, whether in their beds, next to their food bowls or in a room full of screaming little party people

Unfortunately it's ignorance like this that has lead to the increase in dog bites to children. And the change to the DDA to include dogs in the home - they are the greatest risk to children's as adults ignore the warning signs and think they're 'happy' until they reach biting point. No dog is 'happy' with the sort of interactions you describe - they're just learning to escalate their distress and their aggressive behaviours to the point that somebody pays attention.

PLEASE read the links I posted

Parents must supervise child-dog in interactions appropriately

Thank you for this excellent post.

I would neither rehome nor PTS. I would assure my brother that his children will never be let alone with the dog again. I would also have a check up with the vet.

Letting a 2 year old into a room with a dog unsupervised is madness. I have a dog. he is lovely. I don't let him alone with any children and certainly not a 2 year old. He is an animal, not a human (although probably would behave better than many humans)

It is absolutely horrible to suggest that a dog should be put to sleep for being a normal dog.

Well Vetinari, its a shame you havent pointed out to the OP the Dangerous Dogs Act, and as such she shouldbe reported and enforcement action taken. Theres a reason the DDA exists and a reason why the courts enforce it, despite all the 'poor dog' sympathies on here, and its equally as irresponsible of you (if you indeed are a BVA member) to disregard the DDA.

I will say again, millions of dogs happily cohabit with children and quite simply never react aggresively to humans under any circumstance. Millions. Looking at US statistics from 2016, 58% of fatalities in the US are from dog attacks on adults. 31% of fatalities are on infants aged between 3 and 6 days, and the remaining 11% are on children.

Under the Dangerous Dogs Act, if a dog bites, it is the dog who is "dangerously out of control" not the child, even in your own home. Im staggered that not only is the law being disregarded, but there is ongoing excusing and an utter disregard for the real victim here. A child. On mumsnet to boot. Whats a bit of scarring hey.

Caroline - (ignoring all the other irrelevancies and hyperbole in your bizarre post), please quote for us the part of the Dangerous Dogs Act that says the OP should be 'reported' and 'enforcement action taken'.

Heartbreaking responses on here. So an exhausted dog who has been on the beach all day took himself off to be alone and rest, was allowed to be bothered by a two year old...and now should be PTS? Are you fucking kidding? Disgusted.

This is completely your brother's fault, not the dog's. Why on earth was he letting a 2 year old wander off out of sight at all, let alone with a dog?

Dogs are not some massive cuddly toy that can be poked, screamed at and pulled around by toddlers without some sort of response. They should be kept separate, and children taught how to behave around them.

Your poor niece, and poor dog.

Dog took himself to bed in another room. 2 year old niece followed.
...
My brother wants the dog out of my house

He can want whatever he likes, but it wouldn't be happening if it were my brother.

My dog, my house, my kids = my choice. He should have supervised his toddler better.

Pretty much any dog will bite in certain situations. If you leave a two year old alone with any dog and they hurt/ harass that dog (which 2 year olds tend to do) then it might bite them. Your brother is being ridiculous - he's to blame here; he should have supervised his child properly. I think it would be very unfair to PTS based on this one incident.

Brother prob feeling very guilty he allowed this to happen. No way would I even be considering pts or re-home in this situation. Poor dog, once again man's best friend let down by a human.

Poor dog.

My dog (whippet) has snapped at my nephew and also marked his face. Dn was 3 at the time.

I had gone away overnight. My mum was staying at mine to look after ds (2) and dd (11). Nephew had previously hurt dog (6 months before, while sister was waiting in for a delivery for me).

Apparantly dd was upstairs. Mum and sis and ds and dn downstairs. Dnephew went to cuddle dog. Dog snapped.

Dsis and dmum wanted me to rehome dog. Told them no. I apologised for dog obviously. But dsis shouldnt have let dnephew hurt dog previously. And they shouldn't have let dnephew grab at dog.

Dnephew has been snapped at twice more by other dogs. Dsis allows dnephew to invade dogs space, has never stopped him pulling and poking their dog and doesn't seem to understand that animals need space too.

My dog is terrified of dnephew even now 18 months later. When he visits she is shut outside 2 doors away and he is not allowed near her for both of their sakes.

Dogs and small children should never be left alone together. Your niece probably hurt or startled dog. He probably felt anxious that there were people in the house and you weren't.

Of course you can never 100% trust any dog. But I wouldn't pts in this case.