Urgent help needed please - dog bit toddler.

[WheresMaHairyToe]

Rescued my dog 7 months ago, he was a stray and is between 3 and 5 years old. Lab/ lurcher type mongrel.
He has been wonderful - quick response to training in the home, not quite 100% on toileting but getting there, fantastic with my kids (all over 8.)
Today, we were at the beach for a couple of hours with my 3 plus 5 assorted niece and nephews. Dog completely fine.
Got home, everyone settled, kids playing in garden. Dog took himself to bed in another room. 2 year old niece followed. Nobody witnessed what happened, but niece was bitten on the face. Small cut and bruising - bad enough!
My brother wants the dog out of my house. He isn't insisting on PTS. I rang 4 shelters, all said he was not able to be rehomed, so would be destroyed.
I've put him in kennels to give us all some breathing space, and am waiting on two shelters calling me back. He had never shown a single sign of aggression before this, but apparently did not growl before biting. My brother got to him seconds after the bite, and said he was also aggressive to him.
I got home about 10 mins after bite to a very unhappy dog.
I am heart broken, I don't know what to do. I am considering building him an outdoor run and muzzling him when he's near children, but that seems awful.
Sorry if this is incoherent. I'm in a bit of a state!
Please help with advice if you can! Or if you know of a no- kill shelter anywhere in NI.

Mesh muzzles should only be used for minutes at a time, like for vet visits.

You know the well known phrase 'Let sleeping dogs lie.'? It's well known for a reason.

@SquashedInTight

Fabric muzzles are not advised for wearing routinely, they restrict hard panting and can allow dogs to overheat, they're designed for short usage, while being examined at the vet's for example.

They're really not safe to be used for extended periods of time, that's why basket muzzles allow their mouths to open fully inside them.

So you will know that the norm in Australia is that if a dog bites it is rarely taken to the vet to be put to sleep, rather that the owner (or the bite victim or parent of the victim) will take the dog out and shoot it.

This is nonsense. I grew up in Australia and I know of no one who even has a gun, let alone someone who would shoot their own dog!

I think it's important to highlight that the injury was "Small cut and bruising" - this isnt a case of a multiple teeth puncture marks bite or anything with any power behind it, its the kind of injury that would be easy to get accidentally from a startle/warning movement.

If the dog came from a genuine rescue home then you will have signed an agreement saying that the dog should be returned to the home should there be any problems and not just rehomed. Something is telling me he didn't come from a registered dogs home.

I've got a medium sized dog and 2 kids, aged 6 and above.
I still don't leave them unsupervised with my 2.5 year old dog - if I go for a shower and the kids are playing, I crate our dog.

You're taking the right course of action here OP.

What an awful situation, OP, but I don't think PTS is appropriate or necessary under the circumstances. I'd get a vet check and then a behaviourist to develop a management plan. It might be as simple as not leaving small children unsupervised with the dog (should be a given anyway), and keeping the dog on a lead when you're out and about with him. Good luck!

Just re-read your post. Your kids are much older, so old enough to know how to not annoy the dog so I think your main issue is making sure young children are never, ever left unsupervised with the dog. I do think it must be difficult to trust a dog 100% but there's a lot you can do to minimise the risk of something awful happening, I don't believe this is a PTS scenario.

I think your niece is used to their 'placid' dog? That's usually short hand for poor dog squished, grabbed and dragged round by kids. So quite possible she did something likely to provoke a bite-you only get to know your dog is placid by seeing treated past reasonable limits.

My dog bites easily, she has bit me but never my kids. She is never disturbed on her bed, whilst eating, whilst in her space. She would probably bite straight away if she was - your dog had a long day and was bothered by a toddler - parents fault entirely. No obvious reasons in your post why she would ever need to bite again if managed better.

My old dog did bite my eldest who was about 3 and doing something he had been told not to. She bit his cheek and left a bruise with teeth marks - my fault/his fault entirely. He was chucking stuff at her and I thought he was following me addtervtelling him to stop - he stayed to do one more chuck. That dog never but again, she played with all my children and with visitors and was a great reliable dog. She had just a had enough that day very reasonably

procrastion, while registered rescue homes will take the dog back if there are problems, they will pts if a dog has bitten. They can't take the smallest risk of this happening again if they rehome the animal. And personally, I find that pts is much kinder than having a dog spend the rest of its life in a non-kill shelter.

Most fabric muzzles do not allow drinking either. This is the comfiest option for our dog, as it does. She can drink and lick and rest with her family comfortably.

Obviously, anyone with a brain would use such an item sensibly - there is always the option to have the dog locked in a separate room, it is not needed outside, and I cannot imagine anyone spending all day at home with the kids around the dog all day (and thus leaving it on all day!). Nor can I imagine anyone letting their dog get so hot when resting at home with the family that they are panting - do people really allow that? Cold showers at useful intervals when it is hot fix that nicely!

Just to point out - if nobody was watching the dog or the toddler, and it's a bruise and small cut.... OP are you sure it definitely was the dog and the toddler didn't just trip over a chair leg or something?!

I think it's important to highlight that the injury was "Small cut and bruising"

YES - This is the crux of it. Some people on here seem to believe that any contact between dog's teeth and human skin (especially a child's face) should automatically mean the dog is PTS.
However, dogs only have a limited number of communication methods, growling and snapping are two that signal 'Leave me alone!'

There is a world of difference between a child being caught by a warning snap (probably caused their face being too close to the dog's face to start with) and a full on attack with intent to hurt

"That doesn't mean he then has to demand the dog is pts"

Yes he can and yes the law says he can. Why is this so hard for mn to understand. A child has been bitten, on the face, the favoured area for aggresive dogs, under circumstances not witnessed.

The Veterinary Journal published a study a couple of years ago regards facial bites. The group studied were all children. 79% were leaning over, a further 19% were putting their faces close to the dog.

Not one occasion of facial biting followed an incidence of pulling at the dogs skin, tugging the dog, tripping over or falling on the dog, during feeding, nail trimming, or interactions posters here expect. None. Also in 75% of the cases studied, the child was known to the dog.

What this doesnt mean is that, 79% of dogs in the population, will bite if you put your face near theirs. It means that 79% of dogs who acted aggresively in this manner, did so prompted by mere approach. Those dogs, just as the OP has described hers, are and will continue to react aggresively by mere approach.

Luckily it is a very very small number in the canine world who respond in this way, but when identified, must absolutely be PTS due to the fact its is guaranteed to re-occur. This is how this dog reacts when approached at close quaters. Facial attack.

To continue with the 'poor dog' response, utterly ingnores what has happened here, and blames both the child and the OP/owner (who I dont blame, my issue is with the response as to what to do about it).

It is squarely on the dog, and no its not 'normal' and excusable behaviour.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023315004189

Yes he can and yes the law says he can.

I asked you last time to quote this law. It appears you can't.

I just want to clarify that I 100% take responsibility here. I did not take care if my dog.
He doesn't go off lead on walks because his recall is not yet 100%.
Nobody I contacted for advice said to put him to sleep. They said THEY would have to as they wouldn't rehome. A couple gave very sound advice about vets/ behaviourists/ pens etc.

The rest of your post is utter rubbish.

My niece was bitten on the face by a dog then she was little (3? 4?), requiring plastic surgery. She nearly lost an eye.

It turned out that she had put a rope round the dog's neck and tried to ride it like a horse. The dog panicked at being choked, whipped around and bit. It's animal instinct and entirely normal. It has zero to go with an 'aggressive personality'.

The dog was the gentlest thing I've ever met. It had been in the family the years, had never shown a hint of aggression, and never showed any again. It lived many more years as a beloved family pet.

Someone linked to the Liam J Perk foundation, it's worth having a good look at that website.

The trouble is, people buy or rehome dogs and puppies, and often lose sight of the fact that they are a different species with different body language. So many photos or videos of dogs and children together show a very stressed dog who is uncomfortable with the attention they're being shown, but whose owners rarely recognise it. Any pet dog could end up snapping, mainly because owners put them in intolerable situations and don't respect the dog's boundaries.

If you google cute dogs and children, I'm willing to bet that the majority of dogs pictured are showing clear signs of stress, but you need to be able to recognise them.

In this case it's not the dogs fault, and the whole situation was avoidable.

Your brother is entirely at fault. I wouldn't rehome the dog but would do as you suggest ensure the dog has a safe space when there are children around, get help from a behaviourist and tell db that you are very sorry but you won't be pts the dog but will employ strategies to ensure it doesn't happen again.If in future he is at yours he needs to better supervise his child in spite of the strategies you use.
Our dog is a lovely friendly little dog but isn't keen on small children as we are an older teen and adult family so he hasn't really had much experience of little ones. On more than one occasion when out and about I have had to tell parents to keep their children away because some people seem clueless to the fact that a small and cute dog could quite easily bite their child particularly when they run up to and crowd him whilst squealing.
Only last week a mum brought her toddler towards us saying "let's say hello to the little doggy" without even asking if it was safe and then she seemed annoyed when I told her "no because he might bite" which made the toddler cry I don't even think he would bite as he never has, although he growls plenty, but prefer not to take a risk.

Well done OP - it sounds as if you're being very measured and sensible

CarolinesBeanies
Well Vetinari, its a shame you havent pointed out to the OP the Dangerous Dogs Act, and as such she should be reported and enforcement action taken. Theres a reason the DDA exists and a reason why the courts enforce it, despite all the 'poor dog' sympathies on here, and its equally as irresponsible of you (if you indeed are a BVA member) to disregard the DDA.

Are you suggesting that the best thing to do would be for OP to prosecute her brother (the responsible adult) under the DDA? The DDA does not necessarily focus on immediate euthanasia of the dog as you seem to think - yes the dog would be assessed but it's the 'responsible' human who is prosecuted - and I'm not sure that that would be best for anyone in this situation.

Also could you please explain why my membership or not of the BVA is even remotely relevant? I suspect from that comment you actually have no idea who the BVA are or what they do.

Unfortunately throwing out random comments on legislation (that you clearly don't understand) and veterinary associations (that you clearly aren't familiar with) isn't really enhancing my faith in the soundness of your opinions!

Koaladown under,

Section 3 para 5.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/65/section/3

Useful and interesting study on dog bites but it definitely does not conclude that any dog that has bitten on the face needs to be PTS. That is your inference.

As you say yourself, the research shows that there are a very, very small number of dogs don't like people in their face and will react by biting. That is exactly why many of us who are defending the 'poor dog' have advised that the OP sees a qualified (positive) behaviourist, who can assess her dog for exactly these sort of traits and advise accordingly.

However, I don't get why some people seem to expect all dogs to be 100% bullet proof 100% of the time. If a dog bites someone for putting their face too close then it certainly is not suitable to live with young children but I still don't get why it automatically has to be PTS.

For example, if it were a pet horse, cat or parrot that bit, scratched or pecked enough to draw blood if someone put their face too close then would you still say it is dangerous and has to be destroyed? Or would you just make sure it was kept apart from small children and tell everyone else "not to put their faces close because you are likely to get bitten, scratched or pecked"?

"The rest of your post is utter rubbish. "

Take it up with the Veterinary Journal Koaladownunder.

Carolinesbeanies - what that study proves is that getting in a dog's face is a) provocative; b) if the dog is going to bite, it's going to bite your face because it's the nearest bit to it; and c) that children are more likely than adults to behave like that (ie stick their face in a dog's face when the dog is giving off clear 'fuck off and leave me alone' signals.

That's why you supervise dog/children interaction and you don't go and get in a dog's face when they have taken themselves off for a bit of alone time. It is not 'squarely on the dog' and does not mean that it should absolutely be put to sleep.

A lot of dogs would react like this if provoked in this way. It doesn't mean they all need to be killed - it means that people who own and interact with dogs need to be responsible.

Carolines

Yes. I am familiar with it.

It does not say that the brother can demand the dog be PTS.