Does anyone fancy a "puppy survival" thread part 2

[Soubriquet]

Here we are again

Just jump in and join us

I was in a different room to my puppy but I slept close enough to get to him quickly and had a quick route from the crate to the outside. When puppies pee they pee with no warning so unless you have a brilliant pee holding puppy (I have heard of them but mine wasn't ) expect to have to attend to them frequently during the night for several weeks. I worked on the principle that a puppy can hold pee at night (day is different) for 1 hour per month of age plus 1. So a 2 month old puppy can only hold it for max of 3 hours (may be shorter or longer but mine seemed to follow that pattern).

I won't be sleeping with the pup. I fully expect her to cry. The breeders guidance is to ignore otherwise she relies on you to settle. It is not dissimilar to controlled crying I imagine. I suspect our views would differ about that with human babies too wolfie but my two sons seemed to have survived!

Plan then is to take her out at regular 2/3 hourly intervals during the night. Outside will be 4 steps from where she will sleep. Will clean any accidents thoroughly then and there.

Thanks for water advice - will make sure she gets lots in the day and evening.

Yikes! Exciting!

I did sleep with mine as a tint pup (still do ). I normally get up a couple of time during the night for a wee so just put pup out at the same time.

Think I'm going to have wash Bluepuppy's legs on the weekend. They still look nice and white but are starting to smell a bit. Think he's getting some wee splash back on them

He has his behavioural vet appointment tomorrow. Fingers crossed she has some ideas to help with his separation anxiety

Obviously tint pup should be tiny pup ...

blue mine has a habit of not bothering to stand still when peeing so it goes everywhere (still not cocking his leg, think he spends to much time round girl dogs). Fortunately he gets very dirty on a walk so he regularly gets hosed down

It's winter here so I'm hoping I can do a bit of a leg sponge bath with warm water.

Mine had an upset tummy the other day. Definitely needed a bit of a wash.
Iamblossom. I think I recognise your posting style. The poster who wanted a cute cross breed for a young child.
The breeder's advice is out of date and not the current recommended way to deal with a new puppy. Look at that FB group. Instead of learning to soothe you can end up with a shut down or super anxious dog. They may initially go quiet but then sort of relapse and you have a bigger than ever problem. But I doubt you will listen. So I give up.

lamb: you might be interested to hear our experience. We had our pup at 8 weeks, and crate trained at night, and set an alarm to go off every (I think) 2-2.5 hours to start with, increasing to 3/3.5 hours to let him out for a wee. I'm not saying this was easy for the first few weeks, but he never once wet in his crate, or poo-ed in it. We had maybe a grand total of 10 wee accidents indoors even when awake, and he's never done a poo indoors. He slept through the night (i.e. from last wee at 11 until morning without needing to go out) by iirc 11-12 weeks. So we were really not doing it for long.

We didn't have him upstairs with us, but slept downstairs probably for most of that first few weeks - at first right next to him, then further away, then in the sofa bed in the next room. In the first few weeks, I think he whined for a grand total of 30 seconds in his crate.

We did LOTS of things wrong when he was a little one I know, but the two things I expected to be hardest: toilet training and teaching him to sleep alone: were actually easy, and I'm sure it was partly because we took things slowly and moved at his pace.

HTH...

Hi Wolfie - I do indeed listen. I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want to hear opinions. But I do have the right to choose which ones I agree with.

I don't have small children and I am not getting a cross breed.

I can count 20 families we know who have reasonably recently introduced puppies into their families successfully and not a single one of them slept with their puppies. In fact I think if I suggested it to any of them they would think it was a barmy idea!

I am all for reassurance, love, cuddles, and attention and I am aware puppy will be frightened, not used to being without its mum and in a new and scary environment but I also believe dogs, like babies need to learn to self soothe and sleep alone.

I intend to take her out for toileting every two/three hours at which point she will get love and cuddles so I am not talking about leaving her alone for 8 hours locked in a crate while I push Zs upstairs.

Thanks for your help and advice. I'll read my book and talk to my RL friends, and learn as I go with my puppy instead of posting here if me not agreeing with 100% of what you say pisses you off. Shame as I always find Mumsnet such an invaluable source of help and info, but I don't want to intrude on your thread.

Have fun!

thanks Towel! Really helpful.

I should add - ours in a little dog: from what I've seen/heard, the larger dogs are slower to sleep through/gain bladder control (woolfie and blue can confirm from their knowledge of big pups ;-)

(We do provide water 24/7, btw, so there is always water in his crate)

Mine's a whippet pup so not big

@lambblossom I slept downstairs by the pup for the first week so that I could hear him if he woke. When I was happy that he was sleeping through I went back upstairs (it might sound painful but I think it's helped him to like his crate - he actively chooses to be in there at night and never fusses when he's shut in at night).
For the first month I got up between 2 and 3 every night to take him outside. The one time he pooed in the crate was between 3:00 and 6:00 and I think he was unwell. I only saw it when I went to let him out at 6:00.
We've had no probs with housetraining but some issues with separation. Nothing major and I'm working on it and hoping he'll grow out of it as well. I wish I'd been as disciplined about getting him used to being alone as I was about other things (housetraining and recall). He's not great alone for any length of time and that makes things challenging for me.
I really recommend The Happy Puppy Book I've followed that quite closely (except the noise in crate bit which didn't quite fit for me). We read it before the puppy came home and it was a godsend!

You've girly a whippet as well, haven't you Heidi? Sounds like yours is similar to mine. Great with toilet training but not so good being alone. They really are Velcro dogs aren't they

Bigger than my little mini blue - although granted not as big as wolfiepup!!

Iamblossom the issue with leaving a pup to cry (aside from it being distressing for them, which should be reason enough not to do it) is that whilst it ends up working for some dogs for others it very effectively sets them up to develop separation anxiety.

I speak from experience. Leaving pups to "cry it out" was the advice we got when DDog1 was a puppy so that's what we did. In very short order we had a puppy who was so terrified of being alone she was busting out of her crate and screaming herself hoarse. This is by no means an unusual outcome of leaving a puppy to cry and it took a long time to undo the damage we did.

With subsequent pups we followed the more up to date advice, that learning to sleep alone/be alone during the day should never involve the pup being in distress, and have three very confident dogs who have always been happy to be left and cope just fine with a change in sleeping arrangements.

Think I'm going to have wash Bluepuppy's legs on the weekend. They still look nice and white but are starting to smell a bit. Think he's getting some wee splash back on them

Pissy legs/sides are one of the less glamorous sides of whippet ownership. Two of mine aren't so bad but DWhippet3 still needs wiping down on a regular basis after he's been out and he's three and half years old now 😭

Ideally I would need a shower and a shampoo round her bits! But I don't have one she could get in and she wouldn't let me do it either! Made do with damp kitchen roll and a wipe. Boak!
Cornflake I was really impressed with giant girl last night. We went for a wander by the windy canal last night. (Not for long. Too hot!) Then popped to the pub. She was calm and settled (despite sometimes finding people scary) We enjoyed our drinks then she came straight home to bed. Given her earlier separation anxiety and how nervous she has been of people I felt really proud of her.

@blue yes I have a whippet he's super independent in every other way and not what I was expecting from a whippet (he's brave and sociable) but he doesn't like being shut in his crate. If he has the run of the kitchen he's fine BUT I'm not convinced he won't do himself an injury!

Iamblossom if you read this thread (and part 1) we all have different opinions and methods of bringing up a puppy and might not agree with each other all of the time.

I let my puppy cry and settle in the daytime which is frowned upon but I read everything and was happy with doing so. The good part is that you will get lots of opinions and ideas from different people so if one method is not working for you then you can always try something else.

The good part is that you will get lots of opinions and ideas from different people so if one method is not working for you then you can always try something else.

It's not just about what works for the owner though, it should also be about avoiding causing distress for the puppy and leaving them crying (whatever the outcome) is distressing for them.

As I said, leaving the puppy to cry works for some people but for plenty it doesn't and when it doesn't there's a very high risk that it's setting the puppy up for separation anxiety. At that point it's not just a case of trying another method but having to go back and undo all the negative associations that the puppy has built up from spending their time alone upset.

Not leaving a puppy to cry until it gives up isn't making a rod for your own back nor do you end up with a dog incapable of self settling. It just greatly reduces the risk of a puppy developing full blown SA and doesn't involve causing them any distress. Win win for both the owner and the puppy.

Iamblossom I'd really recommend reading the articles on this list, particularly Puppy's First Night and the one on crate training. These are all written by highly respected professionals who use and promote modern, science-based and ethical training methods.

CornflakeHomunculus as I said different opinions. People can make up their mind on which ones to follow just like in life. Trainers all have different slants on things as well, having been to a few different groups. I always back my opinion up with a provision that it doesn't work for some people and also others won't agree.

Trainers all have different slants on things as well, having been to a few different groups.

And not all trainers are equal. Anyone can set themselves up as a trainer and dole out dodgy advice left, right and centre. There's a reason why trainers who base their methods on the latest research (and who keep up to date as new research happens) don't recommend dominance based training, using aversives or "crying it out" with a new puppy.

Just look as Cesar Millan. He has a huge following of people who swear by his methods but that doesn't mean many of his techniques aren't ineffective, abusive or even downright dangerous.

Cornflake as my girl has suffered with separation anxiety I would agree that it's worth doing pretty much anything to avoid that developing. It has taken me weeks and weeks to get big girl settled and happy to be left. She came from a good breeder and I did everything "right". Whether she's just naturally clingy and a bit nervy or whether she picked up on my anxiety I don't know but it's been really upsetting and hard work. Getting there now!!
I'm now secretly wondering if you are involved with the group I keep mentioning. If so thanks for all the advice. Hugely helped with stuff like toilet training and the separation anxiety.

CornflakeHomunculus i wasn't suggesting abusing a dog but we all have different opinions on how we do things like sleeping in the same room or not, never allowing your puppy to cry or not, even down to what type of food you should feed them. If we get to the point where people can't voice their opinion whilst agreeing that we don't all follow the same 'rules' on a survival thread it will be a sad day.