Would you put up with a dog that bites?

[Sweetdisposition91]

Hi,
My dog in question is a 5 year old Rhodesian ridgeback. I've owned him since he was 9 months old, he was very nervous aggressive, aggressive to strangers, hadn't been socialised, dominant etc.
I took him training classes, made him experience all different kinds of social situations (whilst muzzled!) and gradually over time he became a confident dog who enjoys human attention. However, there has always been on going issues and I've never met another dog like him!

He has bitten me various times over the past 5 years, causing me to bleed, scar etc. Although he does growl at certain times, every time he has bitten me he gives no warning, and goes into a frenzy attack where he will grab my arm/hand 3/4 times before he calms down. I have seen some behaviourists with no such luck as there is no specific triggers, although it is predominantly when I try to stop him from doing something or over food if he shouldn't be eating it (but will let me take bones and food off him under a normal circumstance)

So basically, has anyone had any experiences of dogs that unfortunately will always have this side to them? a trainer told me this and said I just have to manage him!

And would you just put up with it?

I honestly can't ever see him changing as it's not just me he has also bitten my mum and brother. I love him so much but it's getting to a point where I am now becoming scared of him in certain situations which I know will never end well!

Please be gentle with me as I feel embarrassed to admit this and I am a responsible dog owner when it comes to walking him etc.

But what if he's off a lead and goes past a child who has food?

Can you guarantee he wouldn't go for the food/child?

I'm sorry but I think you should pts

"Actually thinking about it, the reason I stopped letting mine offlead even in quiet places was because someone grabbed him by the collar - nothing happened, but I didn't know in that split second whether he'd be ok with that person or not."

He was muzzled at the time btw...just felt the need to add that.

do you know what OP, I think you know you're out of order & know your dog's a danger but you don't want him to be PTS. That's understandable - who wants to put their pet to sleep? No-one.

But other people have because they know if their dog has bitten, especially more than once, they're a danger.

You can't predict when he'll next bite, or who. You've got a very big dog who is a danger to everyone. But you don't care enough about other people and their children to do the right thing.

Shame on you.

Btw, think of it this way. If you keep him safe from others, as in muzzled and on a lead, you will protect him from biting someone and having to be put down as a result. You're keeping HIM safe, by being a responsible dog owner :)

Exactly you are keeping your dog safe you are responsible for him

Now I know why your cat wants to kill you

As with most issues in life, there is a balance to be struck between "I would never, ever, ever have a dog pts however aggressive" and "I would always put a dog down if it bit someone". There are a million shades of different backgrounds, circumstances, triggers, and characteristics that should guide this decision according to the individual dog concerned.

I really feel for you op, because we have a generally very friendly and tolerant rescue dog who has nipped us, but only in certain very stressful circumstances which we can now remove/predict and even though he only gave a warning nips which didn't draw blood, it was very shocking at the time. Our dog had a horrible background of neglect and possible abuse (he cowered away from brooms and large men when we first had him). We have since engaged a behaviourist and we have come to learn all the signals which dogs use to very subtley communicate with us, and this has helped immensely with our interaction with the dog, and our dog's interactions with other dogs. It has also enabled us to understand how incredibly stressed he was and to take things much more gentlywith him.

All dogs have the capacity to bite though. It is one of the ways they communicate.

In this instance though op, given the dog's size, background and the fact he has bitten you, your mum and your db, and that you are afraid of the dog, I am sorry to say that I think that you are probably not the best person to keep it. The risk is too great, as a previous poster said, you could easily encounter a child eating food, on which the dog could inflict damage, even if muzzled.

And although I think the dog's trust do good work, I am a firm believer in an animal doing what it was designed/bred for. A strong dog like yours should be able to roam freely. What sort of life would it have, only allowed very limited freedom?

In this individual case, I would say it would be better to have the dog PTS sadly.

I've heard that one before OP, sorry you're too late.

But glad to see you think it's funny that your dog (who is a big, strong breed, not a little sausage dog) could seriously injure someone or kill a small child and instead of listening to what the majority of sensible people on here are saying you're making jokes.

DO you not understand how dangerous your dog is or do you just not care about the safety of anyone else around you?

Luckily for me, even if my cat did want to kill me, it's highly doubtful it could.

Your dog, on the other hand...

Your dog should be put to sleep. You only muzzle him when he allows you? You let him off the lead in public? Seriously? It is unlikely you might meet a child in the park at 5.30am but not out of the realms of possibility. I felt for you at the start of the thread but I am increasingly frustrated by your attitude. You have a large dog, with a history of biting without warning. Please keep him muzzled and on a lead at all times.

I have listened to advice and like I've said yet again I will have him on lead from now on, and begin my muzzle training, I'm also seeing a different recommended behaviourist.
Seriously what more do you want me to take on board?!
Because I choose not to just instantly put down my dog through the advice of internet posters, you are up in arms about it... no wonder people have said that to you before!

Op this is ridiculous

You can't predict who will walk by at 5.30 am

It's highly unlikely people will be around but not impossible and that could be the one day your dog runs and doesn't come back

It is NOT worth the risk.

You have your head in the clouds if you truly believe you risk asses everything

I don't know why you're singling out my responses when so many other people are saying the same thing.

The dog should be PTS. People are angry because i t actually could be a matter of life or death, or life changing injuries - and you couldn't give a flying fuck.

Your attitude is disgusting. You are a classic example of why a dog owner should be charged when their dog attacks another dog or a human, when they knew it had bitten before and did sweet FA to prevent it.

Surely me keeping him on lead and muzzle training is preventing?? Not everyone chooses to put a dog down in these situations and that is a personal decision and my decision only!
I didn't come on here to ask whether I should put my dog down or not and I feel like I keep repeating myself to you and others that maybe haven't read my above posts

I give up. This is not a new problem with your dog it has been going on for nearly five years. Five years of unpredictabiity and attacking your family. You cannot do any more for this dog the kinder thing is to have it PTS. It is obviously very traumatised and surely having it done on your on terms is better than it being done under police order when it attacks someone else. You are very lucky that your family has not reported the dog and you.

I thought he didn't allow you to muzzle him very often though, and that that was part of the problem? [Not being snippy, genuine question.]

I really feel for you op, because it is so hard when you have put such a lot of work in to him and he is friendly the majority of the time - it must be heart-breaking - but going on what you have told us, in this individual case, it would be absolutely no shame to concede defeat, simply because of the unpredictability of his behaviour and the fact that it wasn't just warning nips, but proper bites or a "frenzy attack" as you put it. Frankly, judging from what you have posted here, I think it is more predictable that it will happen again, than not happen again ifyswim.

It's such a hard decision but it is easy to rationalise that everything is fine or manageable, until the next time... . And I say this because I fear for you op, as well as the general public.

Lastly, in my limited experience, it's just not humanly possible to supervise a dog 24/7. There needs to be basic mutual trust there for you to co-habit successfully.

Good luck op.

x post

see you are engaging in muzzle training now

I'm going, you can't be reasoned with. If your dog ever attacks anyone else in the future, you'll have to live with that on your conscious.

By the sounds of it though you'll manage, because you don't appear to have one.

It's not just the 'what if there is a child' issue which might be easy for you to dismiss. If he bites and punctures an artery on anyone, including you, you can bleed to death in about six minutes. It is very easy for a large dog with powerful jaws to bite enough to do this. What if you are home alone the next time he attacks and he gets an artery in your arm or leg? Six minutes doesn't seem very long when you need to fight off a dog that is continuing to attack you, try to stem your bleeding and call 999 and wait for help. It is a ridiculous situation to put yourself in, never mind your hideous antisocial behaviour towards the community by keeping this dog. Human life and health always always trumps an animal's life.

Not that I care about this dog's feelings but since you do, I will also say this is not the behaviour of a happy dog. His quality of life will be suffering too. Get him put down, it is in everyone's best interest, including the dog himself.

In general in the home he is well mannered and well behaved but yes it's his unpredictability which is the concerning thing. So he doesn't need 24/7 supervision in the home I just need to learn how to manage the outbursts and prevent them. As long as other people are protected from him then I'm not being irresponsible as a dog owner.
In regards to the muzzle yes I will muzzle him at all times whilst out as soon as I can. I don't want to force or trick it on him continuously as I only want it to have positive associations to him so This will probably be an on going process but in the mean time I will keep him on his lead whilst out.

Why, if he has a history of biting spanning 5 years, are you only muzzle training now?

"Surely me keeping him on lead and muzzle training is preventing??"

It is.

Some people wouldn't tolerate keeping a dog that's bitten at all though and you will run across that opinion posting in an open forum.

I've had people of the opinion that my dog should be PTS, he's never actually bitten...but because that's through lack of opportunity rather than lack of desire there are people who think he should be PTS.

I've considered it, many times actually.

He's a great dog, with us or people he's very familiar with...not so much in other situations.

But I'm very very careful with him and he impacts no-one but us, so it's my decision.

Until he's adequately muzzle trained I would suggest looking for a secure field you can hire to exercise him on so you can be absolutely sure he's not going to come into contact with anyone. You may be able to control him if you've got him on lead but you can't control other people and sometimes people do really stupid things like approach a dog they've been told not to.

This FB page has a really good list of such fields and there are more popping up all the time.

I do muzzle him just not every time we walk, in situations where there's a lot of people about etc and when I do it I have to do it without him knowing as he hates it and will run away from it.., so I need to be more consistent in training him with it so that he willingly accepts it and associates it with positive things

Tabula you sound like you're doing a great job managing your dog!
I will take the advice and take more precautions with him on the off chance that he would ever go for someone else.

I've re-read the bit about him being well-mannered generally and when out on day trips and that he obeys commands etc, and that these aggressive instances occur about three times a year at home with you and your family. And that you never considered PTS but wanted help.

I don't know if this will help - or if situation is just too dangerous - but fwiw our behaviourist said that dogs always give a warning but that sometimes the signs are so subtle/miniscule that we can miss them completely. This can particularly be the case with fearful or nervous dogs.

This link (it's in relation to dc but it covers the same things) covers roughly what our behaviourist said:

doggonesafe.com/why_dogs_bite.

The bks linked at the foot of this article explain the same thing in more detail: en.turid-rugaas.no/calming-signals---the-art-of-survival.html.

The trouble is, given the extreme subtley of these warnings, and given his aggression when food is involved, you still could be at risk because the warning signs are so very small or open to misinterpretation. How would you know if he is just walking away, or that he is walking away because he is stressed and about to attack (if that makes sense?)? Perhaps a good behaviourist will help but genuinely worried for you.