Would you put up with a dog that bites?

[Sweetdisposition91]

Hi,
My dog in question is a 5 year old Rhodesian ridgeback. I've owned him since he was 9 months old, he was very nervous aggressive, aggressive to strangers, hadn't been socialised, dominant etc.
I took him training classes, made him experience all different kinds of social situations (whilst muzzled!) and gradually over time he became a confident dog who enjoys human attention. However, there has always been on going issues and I've never met another dog like him!

He has bitten me various times over the past 5 years, causing me to bleed, scar etc. Although he does growl at certain times, every time he has bitten me he gives no warning, and goes into a frenzy attack where he will grab my arm/hand 3/4 times before he calms down. I have seen some behaviourists with no such luck as there is no specific triggers, although it is predominantly when I try to stop him from doing something or over food if he shouldn't be eating it (but will let me take bones and food off him under a normal circumstance)

So basically, has anyone had any experiences of dogs that unfortunately will always have this side to them? a trainer told me this and said I just have to manage him!

And would you just put up with it?

I honestly can't ever see him changing as it's not just me he has also bitten my mum and brother. I love him so much but it's getting to a point where I am now becoming scared of him in certain situations which I know will never end well!

Please be gentle with me as I feel embarrassed to admit this and I am a responsible dog owner when it comes to walking him etc.

As sad as it is I cannot understand why you persist with a dog that's bitten you a number of times as well as other people and that you're increasingly becoming frighten by.
You know exactly what the right decision is op.
God forbid anyone, let alone a child, gets savaged by your dog.

Honey you may have had good experiences with rescue centres. I know lots of people who haven't. I walk regularly with lots of other dog owners and dog walkers (not altogether). Most - not all - the dogs who are from rescue centres have to be kept on a lead because they are reactive and have not been socialised at the crucial puppy stage. They are not a pleasure to walk. Over the years I have known many "Friendly dogs who will fit into your family nicely" be returned as they have turned out to be anything but friendly towards other dogs or people.

Not all dogs from shelters are snarllng dragons. Some have been afforded good quality training, socialisation, plenty of exercise, love and attention etc all their lives and have had to be rehomed, reluctantly, for genuine reasons.

Breeders may be in it for the money. Some are unscrupulous others are not. I would buy a puppy from a reputable breeder rather than try to fix the behaviour of a dog who is likely to be too old to fix. At least I will always know the history of my own dog.

This reminds me of a lady whose Rottie won't allow her on the bed. He growls and bites at her. She sleeps on the sofa and the Rottie has the bed.

She can't allow visitors into the house because Rottie will bite them. If she puts him in another room he wrecks the entire room. She says, "I could never give him up. He's a big softie really"

I could give lots of anecdotes from friends who have had dogs at nine weeks from breeders with exactly the same issues.

Fortunately there are lots of people who are becoming more educated about the realities of dog breeding and are looking to responsibly rescue.

This is an undocialised, abused street dog.

So sorry to hear your story. It's clear you love him very much and it can't have been easy to write. I'm a vet (in Essex too :-) and I would recommend that you get him examined, which may involve blood tests, X-rays of head/neck/spine to rule out any causes of sudden behavioural change with no identifiable triggers. There are many behaviourists around- I tend to recommend those through the IMDT (institute of modern dog trainers) who have a very rigorous training program to be allowed to qualify and their approach is kind and sensible. Having said that, I personally couldn't tolerate any dog regardless of size as a pet knowing they have bitten before, in the home and under no apparent stress. I simply wouldn't risk it, and I wouldn't rehome him either with the risk of it happening again. Please feel free to Pm me to have a chat if I can be of any help.

I can't get over the fact you let your dangerous dog off lead, unmuzzled in public. That is incredibly irresponsible! You're actually asking for trouble

Been there done that, albeit with a shin tzu. Tried all sorts but when he put my 3yo in hospital with a bitten lip that needed stitching by the maxfillo facial surgeons, enough was enough. He went to the rescue with a very honest full disclosure and tips to manage it, but he bit the fosterers and he was PTS. Often the fault is in the bloodlines, if they have been bred for appearance rather than temperament. I'm so sorry, but I'd be PTS if he was my dog. You can only do so much, and you can't save them all.

Also just wanted to come back on and say please don't be too hurt by the reactions you're seeing here. It's a hugely emotive subject and there are a lot of mixed responses. People get very involved with cases like this because it brings up so many feelings - defence of the animal, concern for your safety and that of others, the "what ifs" are boundless. You've been really brave by honestly posting on here and the number of replies you've had just shows how complicated a case like this can be, that there's no "right thing" to do (In my view I would put him to sleep given his history and even though that's the most responsible decision to me, it will never feel "right" putting an end to an animal's life. I suspect you've got a tough time ahead, but try and be brave and think of the bigger picture here. Dog bites can be fatal, as we all know, but not necessarily in the way you think. The infections they cause can be incredibly serious too. Please discuss this with your vet, they will be able to advise you or if I can be of any more help then PM me. I'm based in Halstead if that's any help to you at all.

Emily

Halstead here too...emotive topic indeed

Can I just say again, although I am not stupid enough to think it would never happen, in general my dog is now friendly to humans he is unlikely to random attack another person as he loves human fuss but even so I keep him on lead around people or muzzle him.
Emily:
Thank you so much for your reply, he is booked in next week for some blood tests, although wouldn't this show up before when he's had surgery? Also it isn't a sudden behavioural change as unfortunately he's always been like this ever since I've had him!
I will talk to the vets to also get their opinion on pts.
Thanks again for all the replies

Sweet, this must have been a tough thread to start. I wish you all the best

Thank you so much! I am trying another behaviourist within the new few weeks too as he said he will be honest if there's no hope for him basically.

I have a similar situation so can completely understand what you are going through. First thing I have to say is that I wouldn't have my dog PTS. You say your dog doesn't have triggers but then you say he bites when you tell him off and take things away - these are his triggers. I'm guessing there are other things which separate between the biting and non-biting incidents (it could be as random as it's raining, or there is a second person in the house) but you haven't noticed the pattern yet. Also are you paying attention to his body language - ears back, low fast tail wagging, turning away, licking lips and yawning are all signs of stress. Start noting the specific circumstances and look out for body language and you'll soon spot the signs and patterns.

I've had my dog from a puppy and he was anxious from the beginning and would bite if pulled on his collar (I always put his lead on and pull him that way), if I tried to take anything from him outdoors (he used to do it if he thought I was going to take something from him but was really putting on his lead, but I've got around this by always telling him I'm putting his lead on so he knows this is the purpose) - now I just let him eat whatever it is - so far it's all passed through, come back up or not caused harm (one trip to the vets after eating a pile of onions). He used to bite every few weeks but had not bitten me in 3 years (he's 6) until about a month ago when I tried to take a lily petal out of his mouth. My own fault for getting complacent. My dog also hates being told off and would bite if told off angrily, so I don't do it - I just reward behaviours that I want. I've built it up to a firm "no" which he understands, but anything stronger and he gets aggressive. It sounds like our dogs are more alike than you realise. I'm guessing that as your dog is naturally anxious, being told off just increases this to a point where it can't cope. Similarly when trying to take things off him that it shouldn't have, mine does it outdoors as he finds it scarier than the indoors which he knows and it's almost a comfort blanket to him - I'm guessing your body language is either angry/anxious (no matter how hard you try to hide it) and this escalates the dogs anxiety, above the already heightened level, hence the biting. Try praising it, "oh well done what have you found? Let's reward you with a biscuit" and see if it then drops whatever bad thing it has for the biscuit. You can always throw a couple of biscuits a bit apart so you have time to put your foot on whatever was dropped.

I muzzle trained my dog as it scavenges on walks and I found this stopped it picking rubbish up and also the following stand off when I tried to make him put whatever it was down. Perhaps try that if you notice the situation is worse outdoors?

I would not have my dog PTS - he's seen a behaviourist and they trained me to be more aware and to understand his anxieties, rather than training my dog. It makes me sad to know you are sometimes scared of your dog but perhaps just recognising it's better if eats what it has and hopefully passes through etc rather than being bitten.

Good luck.

Hi Barnes thank you so much for your post! Yes I guess you are completely right regarding the triggers, if I allowed him to just do whatever he's doing then the biting wouldn't have occurred. I have a pet corrrcter spray which lets off air maybe I could just use that as a distraction technique and then reward him when he stops?
The biscuit idea is good as when I try put my foot on things before he's just started chewing my feet basically!
I want to muzzle him every time we walk but that is an ordeal in itself as when he sees it he runs backwards growling even though I have always used it in a positive way the only way I can get it on him is if I do it from behind before he sees it basically tricking him and then I give him treats telling him how good he is.... any ideas on how I can over come this?! I use the basket type.
I think when I see the behaviourist I just need to establish that he can feel secure with me so as to take any pressures and responsibilities away from him and hopefully that will help his general behaviour i.e. The growling over other stuff without biting.

When I started muzzle training my dog I smeared the inside with peanut butter - starting at the entrance and as he got comfortable further down to the end of the muzzle. Try filling it with biscuits and just leaving it on the floor so he gets happier approaching it without even having it on and then move to peanut butter smears?

if the things he is doing, which you try to stop and then get bitten for, are only potentially harmful to himself then just leave him to it...

Let us know how it goes with the new behaviourist. I live in Cheshire otherwise would recommend mine.

Carefül with peanut butter. Lots of brands now have xylitol in which is deadly to dogs. I used primula squeezy cheese stuff to muzzle train my dog. There's YouTube videos on muzzle training. Start off with small time periods, like ten seconds with cheese and remove.

Few hours later repeat. Over a period of a few weeks you build the time up.

Sweet I really, really wouldn't use a pet correcter spray, yoy need to be stopping any and all punishment techniques. You're just going to make him more frightened and more aggressive.

There is a book called "how to bond with your dog" by Victoria Schade" which I think you'll find useful.

I do think that there's a chance your dog can be helped, but honestly if you're afraid to put the muzzle on him I think you need to consider very carefully if you're the right person to do it. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, really I am, but it takes a lot of strength, courage and care to work with an aggressive dog, however much you love him.

Which behaviourist have you chosen?

Chewing -
This isn't an every day or weekly occurrence the bites happen maybe 3 times a year it's more of a case of I wanted advice on how to manage it, put to sleep had never even come into my head until I came on here!
As I keep saying, he's only off lead when no one is around (I walk at 5.30 in the mornings) on lead when I see anyone, and during the summer he's again on lead or I muzzle him. I also said he loves human attention it's not a case of he is aggressive to people in general and he's obedient unless there's food around which seems to be his trigger! So it's not a case of he's running riot whilst I have no control, he's been on numerous weekends away with me, days out etc and everyone comments on what a lovely well behaved dog he is.
It's just the other side that when I stop him from doing something he's bitten me with no warning, but these situations aren't ones where random people would even be involved but even so I am still responsible with him "just in case".
He doesn't bite me every time I tell him off!

Thanks for the muzzle advice I will do that, and hope my other dog doesn't get to it first!

Bella-
My auntie has used this guy she said he really knows his stuff, and a dog training centre put me on to the same one when I called them for advice. He said he will come to my home and observe us and go from there basically. It's not that I need obedience help he sits, down, stay, come, wait stand etc. (Recall good except when foods about again!)

you're so irreponsible = it doesn't matter if it's only 3 times a year, you don't know when it's going to happen. As for the walking him at 5.30am when there's no one else around, you can't guarantee there'll never be anyone else around.

The truth is, you don't give a shit about anyone else's welfare. I really hope one of your neighbours or friends reads this and reports you to the council because it seems that's the only way your dog isn't going to be a danger to anyone else.

Your actions are dangerous and you are selfish beyond belief.

With the muzzle, you'd usually start by just rewarding a dog for having it over their nose for a second and build from there usually, but you're going to have to start much smaller with him and just get him happy to have you holding it before you can even think about moving on toot being near him.

"these situations aren't ones where random people would even be involved"

You're saying that like its something you can control though, you can't control what he's going to see as sonething worth guarding or other people.

You are doing your best so firstly, well done for that. You've done everything that you could.

I was in a similar situation but the difference was that my dog was a small breed. I could tolerate his nervous aggressive and 'love bombed' him until he stopped doing it and realised that nothing bad was going to happen to him. It took two years but now he's near-enough normal. But I don't think that a dog the size of yours and with such a long history of the problem, is going to change. I'd be worried about what he is capable of. It's irresponsible to re-home (I'm not suggesting you would) and I realise that leaves one horrible option. Talk to your vet and if they suggest euthanizing the dog then perhaps take their advice.

You're a saint to have gotten this far.

Sweet - it sounds like you're on the right track ignore everyone who says you're irresponsible - if he's on lead and/or muzzled outdoors then that's perfect.

I hadn't realised there was a second dog. Could this be influencing your dog's food aggression? Do they eat in different rooms etc? If he felt his food wasn't threatened he may relax? Try the muzzle thing in a room away from the other dog - shut the door and give him privacy and safety. If he's scared to approach the muzzle filled with treats try covering it with a tea towel or something so he investigates the yummy smell without being scared.

Keep up the good work!

I can't guarantee it No but I do have eyes!! He also stays close in general he is a pretty lazy dog he doesn't go running about or go far he usually lopes behind me so it's not like I have to frantically get him before someone gets near!

But i will try to muzzle train him properly as I would prefer to muzzle him st all times whilst out as it would give me more confidence in him and also allow him more off lead time. Also I think by muzzling him he can't eat random things which again massively solves my problems! It's not that I don't want to muzzle him it's more of how he reacts to it but over time hopefully we can over come that.
I don't see why anyone would randomly report my dog either when he has never even come close to causing any other person harm