Would you put up with a dog that bites?

[Sweetdisposition91]

Hi,
My dog in question is a 5 year old Rhodesian ridgeback. I've owned him since he was 9 months old, he was very nervous aggressive, aggressive to strangers, hadn't been socialised, dominant etc.
I took him training classes, made him experience all different kinds of social situations (whilst muzzled!) and gradually over time he became a confident dog who enjoys human attention. However, there has always been on going issues and I've never met another dog like him!

He has bitten me various times over the past 5 years, causing me to bleed, scar etc. Although he does growl at certain times, every time he has bitten me he gives no warning, and goes into a frenzy attack where he will grab my arm/hand 3/4 times before he calms down. I have seen some behaviourists with no such luck as there is no specific triggers, although it is predominantly when I try to stop him from doing something or over food if he shouldn't be eating it (but will let me take bones and food off him under a normal circumstance)

So basically, has anyone had any experiences of dogs that unfortunately will always have this side to them? a trainer told me this and said I just have to manage him!

And would you just put up with it?

I honestly can't ever see him changing as it's not just me he has also bitten my mum and brother. I love him so much but it's getting to a point where I am now becoming scared of him in certain situations which I know will never end well!

Please be gentle with me as I feel embarrassed to admit this and I am a responsible dog owner when it comes to walking him etc.

[FluffyPineapple]

OP I can imagine how upset you would be thinking of having your dog PTS. I would too. Think back over the last few times your dog has bitten you. What were you doing? Where was your dog? What was the lead up to the bites?

[Blackfellpony]

I very nearly had mine PTS. She nipped somebody as they went to stroke her. I was mortified and furious all at once.

I saw a behaviouralist and had her assessed. Turns out she was screaming out signals none of which Iistened too. The trainer only agreed to work with her on certain conditions and I would be wary of anyone who tells you he can be fixed. He can't, it's about management and improvement but he won't be a normal dog ever. You can never trust him again despite how much he improves.

However, I think it is massively important when working with a dog that you are not scared of it and that it respects you. You can't work with a dog you are scared of, I don't see how it would be possible as dogs know if your not confident and feed from it. You need to be able to confidently handle him, muzzle him etc otherwise it's a dangerous situation. If he is growling at you when muzzling him etc that's a massive red flag for me, I could literally do anything to my dog and she would never so much as grumble. If you can't control him enough to muzzle him without him kicking off you can't train him.

The first thing I did was take steps to ensure she could never hurt anyone again. We created somewhere for her to go when people visit so she is safely secure, she is never out of the house unmuzzled or off lead unless it's secure, she wears a warning vest, we work with her in weekly behaviour sessions. She is much better but you need to take it really seriously, you know what he is capable of so slipping the muzzle off for 10mins or letting someone stroke him because he hasn't bitten before isn't really acceptable, you need to be all or nothing for the rest of his life. Nobody but family touches my dog now, not worth the risk even though she is 'rehabilitated'

On a final note I actually met one of the top ridegeback champion stud dogs a few years back and that was the most unpredictable and scary dog I handled in a long time. One second he was lovely and the next he was going for you full force still the breeder laughed it off!

I really hope you get sorted but I think you need to take his behaviour much more seriously before he ends up in a terrible situation.

[Plaintalkin]

No I wouldn't.

If you are happy to be bitten that's great but how will you feel if he attacks someone else. So no matter how much you love him you can't make excuses for him.

Love him enough and put him down.

[FluffyPineapple]

OP I have asked what the lead up to your dog biting you is. If you can respond maybe posters can offer suggestions?

[WindInThePussyWillows]

Put him to sleep! How can you even think about not. He's a danger to you, and everyone else.

[Sweetdisposition91]

I really can't say it any more times, he is going on a lead permanently from now on so wouldn't be able to bite other people!
These incidents happen a few times a year, fluffy mainly when I stop him trying to eat something or in response to pain,,,, but in general he isn't food aggressive as I can take food from him no problem under a normal circumstance, it's when he's got something he shouldn't have.., and it's not every time it's these random occassions. I guess to avoid it I could just let him eat it and distract him with something else, but I don't know about the reaction to pain.

[FluffyPineapple]

These incidents happen a few times a year, fluffy mainly when I stop him trying to eat something or in response to pain,,,, but in general he isn't food aggressive as I can take food from him no problem under a normal circumstance, it's when he's got something he shouldn't have.., and it's not every time it's these random occassions. I guess to avoid it I could just let him eat it and distract him with something else, but I don't know about the reaction to pain

It is difficult not knowing your dog or how you control him. Have you tried approaching him and dropping treats for him whenever he feels uncomfortable around you? This will go somewhat to making him believe that you being near him is a good thing?

[Sweetdisposition91]

It isn't that he feels uncomfortable around me though that's why he's such a weird case I guess! I'm constantly rewarding him for everything good or positive that he does I always have done.. it's like these certain times he will bite rather than give me warning as an instant reaction to get me away from whatever he's got.

[Booboostwo]

Listen to yourself, you are confirming that his behaviour is unpredictable and whatever his cues might be you cannot read them or manage him. He will injure you, take the many warnings he has given you seriously. No, I would not put up with such a dog.

[FluffyPineapple]

It isn't that he feels uncomfortable around me though that's why he's such a weird case I guess! I'm constantly rewarding him for everything good or positive that he does I always have done.. it's like these certain times he will bite rather than give me warning as an instant reaction to get me away from whatever he's got

Sorry OP. Your dog does not feel uncomfortable around you as he bites you without warning - That is not normal dog language or behaviour. The fact that he gives no warning is very concerning. You may not agree but it sounds like you reward him all the time? Maybe restrict his treats and attempt to treat him ONLY when you are training him. Your dog is 5 years old. He should know what you expect from him. You have given no indication as to when your dog bites so it is impossible to advise you how and when to treat him.

[ProseccoBitch]

I'm sure you said in a previous post that he'd already bitten you five times this year, yet now you're saying he only bites you a few times a year. Which is it?

[FluffyPineapple]

Sorry - I couldn't edit. Should read "Op your dog does not feel comfortable....

[Cucumber5]

Its good you are going to mussle train him and keep him on the lead. Although it's very unlikely that he would do anything to a passer by, if he did, it would look extreamly bad in court due to his history of aggression.

[Tamberlane]

Honestly I think you are seriously minimising the level of your dogs aggression
He skips growl,warning snap,soft contact (no skin broken) and goes straight to full contact break the skin bites.
The next step is maul....multiple contact bites in a frenzy. Has he done that one yet? The only thing considered more dangerous is a dog whos targeting the throat and is lunging upwards when attacking...though if hes biting your arms as you raise them to defend yourself he may be already doing this.

He needs to be muzzled at all times by the sounds of things and always kept on the lead.

He is not a safe animal to be letting loose regardless of the time of day... as hes bitten multiple times already this year!!! And you seem to be minimising this...only 3 times....thats 3 times to many.your lucky its just your family your failing to keep safe.

This sort of dog is the reason we have dangerous dog laws..so if he bites a person whos not in your family the law will step on and do what you should have done years ago.

I work as a small animal vet.
We would decline to treat or handle a dog like yours as he would be considered to much of a potential lethal threat to our staff..for pts we would only see him muzzled and be examined only under sedation....."softie" or not your dog is unpredictable and at one of the highest threat levels of aggression....im not sure if you realise just how potentially dangerous he is......
Your actions certainly suggest that you do not realise that he is not normal.
Dogs with this level of aggesion will never be considered cured. Management for life is the only option. Given your dogs size and degree of unpredictability over resource guarding..ie he allows you to handle food most of the time until he decides its not ok...and due to his size...muzzling 24/7 to protect your family and lead only walks is about the only way to minimise the threat he poses....and he is still capable of knocking you and attempting to maul in a muzzle.....
Have you any idea how dangerous he really is?you really dont seem to realise hes capable of killing you if he bites the wrong area!

[Soupandasandwich]

Tamberlane
Have you any idea how dangerous he really is?you really dont seem to realise hes capable of killing you if he bites the wrong area!
Sadly I think OP is fully aware that her dig could kill her, or indeed anyone else, but she is choosing to ignore it. Let's hope she never has to face the reality of what her dog could do.
I have seen someone attacked and seriously injured by a dog, just for being there. They did nothing to cause the attack, except to be in their own garden when the dog broke away from its owner and jump the tense. It was not pretty and the victim is still living with the consequences almost 50 years later. That was a dog who had bitten its owner previously but they hadn't heeded the warning signs because they 'loved' their dog and a 4 year old child paid the price. So that's alright then.

[CalmItKermitt]

OP what's the name of the behaviourist you plan on seeing, out of interest?

[powershowerforanhour]

Would I put up with a biting dog?
A ridgeback, with a 5 year history of biting since acquisition at 9 months, despite my best efforts? No, I would euthanase.

Strikingclock wrote a couple of good posts.

No way would I use benzodiazepines or any other mood altering drug. They can cause disinhibition ie make matters worse.

Brain scan- waste of time. There is nothing I would see on brain scan that would alter the treatment plan. I'd nearly bet the mortgage there would be no significant abnormalities on a brain scan anyway.

Epilepsy: very very uncommon to have seizures develop prior to 9mo yet not become more frequent over time, and to manifest only as severe aggression with no other signs before, during or after the seizure activity. So rare I have never seen it and do not know of any other vets who have.

Hypothyroidism...I've seen a lot of hypoT4 dogs. One I think was a quite narky on a therapeutic dose of levothyroxine and the dose had to be lowered. I have never seen hypothyroidism manifesting solely as occasional outbursts of severe aggression from under 9 months old and do not know any vets who have.

If he did get hold of somebody and maim them, your insurance company do not have to wiggle out of anything. There is no wiggling necessary. When you sign the policy you will have signed that the dog is not known to be aggressive and if at any point you realised that he was, your third party insurance would not pay for injuries to others sustained as result of his aggression. The aggression will be all over his vet notes, which can be subpoena'd by a court order, so if he injures someone lawyers will make very short work of you in a criminal or civil court as you clearly knew about it.

You say that you would like to manage his very unpredictable, infrequent and severe ("frenzied") outbursts. You can't.

You say that you would like to prevent them. Your vet can. By euthanasing him.

Good luck. I hope that neither you nor anybody else suffers life changing injuries in one of your pet's "frenzied attacks".

[MaynJune]

What did you want from this thread, OP?
It seems that you are determined to put up with it, so I don't see the point of asking the question.
Did you expect the responses to back you up?

[lilybetsy]

I'm really sorry, and I can imagine how hard this is for you, but in my opinion the only option is to have him PTS. You have tried really hard, but a big, unpredictable dog is just too much of a risk.

Just imagine if he bit a child in the park ?

he is too dangerous.

[glassinpocket]

This has to be one of the most worrying threads I've seen in a long time. Over 200 posts and we know op isn't going to have the dangerous dog euthanised.

Frightening for everyone really.

[sofato5miles]

You need to have him PTS. He is dangerous and it is too unsafe to uave him near humans and animals.

[Roussette]

OP... how can you live like this? It surely must be like living with a ticking timebomb. I am completely gobsmacked at this thread. I like dogs but surely owning a dog is meant to be a pleasurable thing. This isn't. You are having to second guess your dog the whole time, you are trying to read his mind (you can't), you are trying to adapt every bit of your behaviour to suit your dog. He is ruling you and your house.

Do your DB and DM ever visit any more? What do they say about the situation?

Barnes my mouth has dropped open reading how you are with your dog. Every bit of how you live has to be tailored to your dog and what it might do next. Like the OP, your dog rules your life totally.

I've grown up with dogs, I don't have one now but it is beyond my comprehension how people live with dogs that bite them. And then blame themselves saying "I should have seen the signs".

OP, for the love of God, you can find another behaviourist, then another, then another, but this is never going to stop. It hasn't for years, it's ingrained in your dog and you can't read the signs because as you say yourself, there are no triggers and no reason why he goes for you. Do the sensible thing.

(And don't answer the door on Monday when you might get children at the door and although you think you've shut the door on your dog, it didn't quite slam and he's out there and attacking). You might be able to tailor how you are, but you can't account for what others might do that will trigger your dog to yet another attack.

[smilingmind]

I do think that a lot of dogs which become aggressive and bite are those breeds not suitable to be kept as domestic pets. In my experience dogs bred for working have much more potential for aggression than other breeds if their needs are not met.
I have lived in Zimbabwe and known ridgebacks . They are lovely dogs but I personally would not keep one as a pet unless I had a great deal of time and land to exercise it. I certainly would never take on an older one with behavioural problems. At best they are never easy dogs.
That said all dogs have the potential to bite if they are not trained properly and the owner kindly and firmly asserts dominance over them.
It seems to me that the situation is reversed with this dog. He is in charge.
This is probably due to the fact that OP did not get the dog until he was 9 months old and had learned behaviour which she has not managed to change in 5 years.
Any dog that bites is, I believe, a vicious and dangerous dog and should be PTS.
Sad I know but how many children have been killed because of irresponsible dog owners ?

[Mishaps]

Are you serious? - you have a large dog in your house that bites and you are asking if you should put up with it!!!!

I should have it put down and buy a lion.

[madein1995]

I would never live in fear of my pet or let them literally rule the house. Mine has ideas above her station and we let her get away with stuff, but ultimately we are the boss and she listens when we adopt 'the voice'. I wouldn't have him PTS - but try to rehome him or get him in an animal shelter as an absolute last resort. I know you say you;ve had behaviourists etc out with no impact, but keep trying different trainers. One will bound to succeed. I wouldn't PTS for behaviour though as that CAN be fixed.

Our dog 'crocs' sometimes, a word we use for 'mouthing' where she puts her mouth on but doesn't bite. That's when play fighting. If we're playing rough (which she likes) she does nip but very gently. She has bitten a few times since puppyhood but usually only when in pain/we're getting a thorn out of her pad etc, so it's understandable. If she goes to bite when not playing (hasn't even got to bite, just turns around as if to do it) she gets told off very sternly, sent to her basket and ignored for 10-15 minutes, she knows it isn't acceptable. As a result she hasn't bitten seriously since being a puppy and then only really when in pain. And she's definitely a pampered dog and indulged a lot, but when it comes down to it we are in charge and she knows it