Puppy has just really gone for ds :(

[JingleBellsJuliet]

We were out playing in the snow, ds had his hood up and was covered in snow, pup (8month old JRT) really took exception to this, seem absolutely terrified of ds and started barking and growling with his tail between his legs. I put him back on the lead and made a fuss of him, and we started to walk towards home. When ds got close, pup flew at ds, snarling and teeth gnashing. I have no doubt that if he wasn't on the lead, he would've made contact :(

We've had issues with him reacting to strange dogs in this way, but, on advice of a trainer, I've been slowly getting closer and closer to new dogs, whilst treating him constantly, and we seem to be making headway. Generally, he does the snarly snappy thing for a few minutes, then wants to play, but he's never shown any aggression towards a person before, let alone ds and it's really unnerved me.

He's a very, very fearful, timid dog. He's scared of traffic, bikes, horses, loud noises etc, and it know this aggression stemmed from fear, as I don't think he recognised ds and it scared him, but I'm terrified that the next time it will be a strange child and I don't even want to think about that.

I'm going to get a muzzle tomorrow and try and get him used to that, and will book an appointment with the vets to see if I can get a referral to a behaviourist, but is there anything else I can do in the meantime? I'm not worried about him going for ds in the house as he loves him to bits and I really think he just didn't know it was him, but I don't want that situation to ever occur again. I'm really shocked and sad at the minute :(

I think Rooner aimed that comment at me, Sunshine, in response to me saying that the current advice hasn't really changed much in the last twenty years.

Where we're at is that we've got a sound body of evidence to explain why dogs do what they do and advice has been based on that. We'll gather more knowledge as time and science advance, so things will change, but we're never going back to pack theory because we've proven it has no relevance.

"I remember when the advice used to be to use a choke chain...."

I do too - but not to prevent catching diseases carrying puppies isn't some newfangled training technique, it's just keeping them up off the ground when you are anywhere unvaccinated dogs may have been until they are fully vaccinated.

Hello - sorry this has happened and hope you are ok.

We have a jrt and she has always been a bit worried about hats, hoods, people carrying strange things (strange to her, eg a guitar) and will bark. Sounds as though the hood freaked her out and confused her so in short term, be aware of this and in long term, you could do some training work getting her used to people wearing 'odd' clothing. I'm no expert but it's as though they like to be able to see people and anything which obscures the face or form might alarm her.

A decent dog trainer will talk you through this.

My take fwiw is that dogs are very conservative and don't seem to like 'different' or 'other'.

Good luck.

And thats exactly my point Rooner your example is a great one - that we now no longer advise the use of choke chains, current advice is (hopefully) better than previous advice, in the same way current advice is to carry puppies to socialise them and minimise infectious disease risk.

It's important that we give advice based on current evidence and good practice otherwise we'd all still be using choke chains and keeping pups indoors until vaccinations we're complete

Our vets have changed their vaccination program: 1st jab at 8 weeks, 2nd at 12 weeks, dog can go out from 14 weeks, so unless you carry the puppy, there will be limited socialising to be had.

Ho - that sounds like it will make socialisation even harder?

I'm still curious as to how others socialise large breed puppies - I haven't seen anyone carrying one - have I missed something?

Gosh Rooners. I've never seen the earth from space but it's not beyond my imagination to say that it's probably not flat

Rooner, tell me this. -

If you have an unvaccinated puppy of 9 weeks - too young to have been fully vaccinated - you would let it out on all fours on your local park?

This is a medical point, not a socialisation point.

Unvaccinated puppies - who are in those two weeks between first and second vaccinations cannot be allowed to come into contact with open public areas.

Large breed puppies - Rottweilers, Great Danes, German shepherd dogs - in have seen them all carried for those two weeks.

It's a question of two to three weeks. Your options in that short window are

1. to keep unvaccinated puppy at home
2. to introduce unvaccinated puppy to as many sights and sounds as possible without compromising their health
3. to let unvaccinated puppy come into full mouth contact with public areas, against medical advice.

Please say - as a medical immunity point what you would do in those two weeks between vaccinations? You would really go with option 3?

"I'm still curious as to how others socialise large breed puppies - I haven't seen anyone carrying one - have I missed something?"

I've already said I carry mine, I know ridgeback owners, Akita and Newfoundland...they all carry theirs too.

And socialisation is a wider window in terms of time that those 14 days or so. Please understand that it is medically risky to let an unvaccinated puppy mouth the grass a potentially parvoninfected dog has urinated on. This is not changeable training advice. It has nada to do with training. It's health.

So the thing is - you can't let puppy go for walks outdoors until a week after second vaccination.

Ok. So do you just keep him cooped inside not knowing that there is a world outside? No. You introduce him to sights and sounds in your arms, while he sits and waits out those few days till the vaccination is done.

Crap - you are true to your name. Where I live no one carries large breed puppies.

I would let my dog out after first set of vax, yes. The risk is miniscule. I only vaccinate my own dog every 3 years - after carefully weighing up both sides of the argument.

No leptospirosis booster?

When I was a kid of about 8 I had a German Shepherd pup. I can clearly remember carrying him around our local town (and bear in mind back then pups didn't leave Mum until 12 weeks).
It's reasonable to assume if an 8 year old can carry a large breed dog then an adult can. The bloke across the road used to carry his Rottie everywhere when it was a pup. Just because it doesn't happen where you live Rooners doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

There is a huge difference between dog training and behaviour modification. The incident described by the OP needs a behavioural modificaiton programme.

The correct methods which are not the ones suggested by Roonerspism have been around since 1936. They are well documented and evidence by academics and qualified behaviorists - they work.

They are notn ew fangled and have not really changed although they of course have been adapted over the years.

OP If you want help getting a qualified behaviourist pm and I can suggest a colleague in your area for your vet to refer you to.

It does sound to me as if your gut reactions are spot on - do not let this thread sidetrack your views.

muttynutty I've PM'd you :)

Sat here with pup cuddled up next to me looking like butter wouldn't melt, yet we've just had the walk from hell! He's really, really disturbed by the snow and is growling at everything we pass. I've decided I'm not going to walk him much until it melts as it's just causing him unnecessary stress, and will take the others out separately (got my friends dog here for another two weeks, which really isn't helping matters either!).

Somebody could have forty years' experience in caring for reactive dogs but if they've approached this from the viewpoint of being the pack leader, have a poor understanding of the risks and benefits of socialisation or don't understand the simple principles of associative learning then I'm afraid they are not appropriately qualified to give advice.

Indeed. Just as someone can have 40 years experience of being a vet, focusing on a range of animals both medically and behaviorally, rather than one species for an entire lifetime, as many who work with rescues do. Who is to say which is more or less 'qualified' to give advice?

However, I have never stated pack theory as right or beneficial and I do understand the principles of associated learning. Pick any two registered behaviourists and on some incidences or issues, their opinions will differ. Science forms a good basis for understanding, experience provides further understanding and known examples of appropriate courses of action.

My suggestions were as follows:
To not to reward for undesirable behaviour (such as an attack).
To muzzle train slowly and gently.
To seek the help of a registered behaviourist.
To work on confidence building techniques.
To be aware that fear base aggression is a particularly dangerous type.
That this issue probably can be worked through to a satisfactory conclusion.

My views regarding socialisation would be that OP approached it according to good current advice and as I have with my own. Carrying a pup when outside, through the unvaccinated period is correct! Not taking them out would impinge upon proper socialisation - putting them on the ground or nose to nose with other dogs would be a massive infection risk. Carrying is the happy medium.

Pick any two registered behaviourists and on some incidences or issues, their opinions will differ. Actually if you do speak to qualified behaviourists they will not disagree on the basic approach to solve the situation.

Ask a group of so called dog owners and trainers and they will disagree due to lack of education and basing their evidence on methods they have used. The results that will be incorrectly judged from anecdotal evidence of their dogs.

I'm with mutty here - there's very little disagreement between qualified behaviorists and ethologists because the science isn't disputable.

This is one of the important distinctions between any old person calling themselves a behaviourist or "rehabilitator" and someone who's qualified to degree level or equivalent.

Procrastina if you work with fearful dogs I can only suggest you try to find a behaviourist willing to give you some more information on handling then correctly because you'll make quicker, more reliable progress with them once you understand the physiology behind fear's effects on learning.

And I realise that sounds arsey but it's a heartfelt sentiment - the more educated people who work with dogs can be, the better the outcomes.

JingleBells, we had a dog who was terrified of everything from bollards to flowerpots to bushes.... Things on their own legs were a total mystery. The dogs ddog barked at never reacted and his behaviour never started a fight. He could also be quite snappy when his thoughts were interrupted and his communication was being ignored. It is horrible to be frightened by a dog's behaviour. Frightened people can be pretty scary too. Dogs seem to improve more readily than people so I'm sure you will get there. Our dcs have had a lot of training around fearful dogs. It is harder for them sometimes.

CCCC, honestly, you make assumption after assumption. I am not concerned by the 'speed or reliability of my progress'. I'm not sure I indicated at any point that I am? Or that you should be? Or that those I work with are? Quite an odd thing for you to have said. I work closely with behaviourists day in, day out and have only encountered one failed rehabilitation (out of thousands) so far. This due to RS/CRS and he was my own. Progress in the science and understanding of canine behaviour is constantly expanding. A fact for which I am entirely grateful. I do think it is a shame that although we clearly each do have relevant experience and knowledge, you feel no-ones input is valuable, aside from your own.

I'm sure our intention to help and not hinder is, at least, equal.

Jingle do you have a garden or other safe outdoor space you can take your pup outside to with his favourite treats or toy for a few minutes several times a day to try and build a positive snow association?
Counter conditioning now will help you for the rest of the winter, and iver the winters to come, but it will also build confidence and trust in your pup generally as he gains confidence and realised snow isn't so scary and this general confidence may be helpful in mitigating his extreme response the next time he meets something scary. As an example one of my dogs is extremely fearful but totally non aggressive so when spooked she'd turn tail and run for home (not ideal) She was spooked by people in hats, buses or lorries, small children, and plastic bags, all of which are pretty unavoidable! I didn't want her to spend her life on a lead but we started off on the lead and did a range of counter conditioning exercises with me giving lots of reassurance (which does not reinforce!!). With time she realised that the scary things were no longer so scary and her fear abated to a level where I could reward her for and getting closer and closer. Now if she sees something that spooks her she doesn't head for home but instead comes to me, or sometimes just looks at me for reassurance. She travels on buses and ignores children. Her confidence is massively improved.

I'd just worry that avoiding the snow doesn't really deal with your pup's fear, tho I understand you want to wait and speak to a behaviourist first

Yes there's an outside space so he'll still have to deal with the snow when he goes to the toilet, but it's frozen solid on the pavements round here and I think that's freaking him out a lot as he seems to be really struggling to keep a grip. He's very, very reluctant to even step into the snow, and his body language changes as soon as he's outside at the minute; he kind of stiffens and his tail is clamped firmly between his legs. It's the same body language I see on a regular basis when he encounters the many, many things that he's scared of! Unfortunately, it appears he has the fight, not flight, instinct though, and now that he's attacked once, I'm worried he'll think it's ok and do it again.

We went for a walk earlier, and he was very growly with people, but I think a lot of it is he doesn't like the crunching sound under peoples feet (he's VERY noise sensitive anyway). He's always been a bit growly, but he's a gobby little sod anyway, so it never worried me too much, but the fact that he's gone beyond that and actually tried to attack is very worrying. It's only outside the house that he's like this though; inside he's confident and sweet natured, and if we're in the middle of a big, empty field, he's as happy as anything running round with my other dog, but he's never really enjoyed the walk to and from the fields, and is terrified in the car to the point that he just shakes and throws up. I think he'd be very happy as a lap dog!

Your gobby dog is very lucky to have you, Jingle! It is frightening when dogs act in fear and you feel unable to help them. I think, like us, they get a surge of hormones and really don't know what to do. Do you have a clicker in your armoury? Click and treat for good behaviour. Good behaviour can be very very simple. Just going into the garden and standing on snow or ice. Just doing it outside the door. A person being near.... If you have a crate or some kind of barrier in the car, you can cover it. You want to end up with a situation that you are really his guardian and if you feel safe, he feels safe. I am not a behaviourist. We seem to end up with problem dogs and it's always a steep learning curve when a new one comes to live with us!