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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Original poster

Puppy has just really gone for ds :(

136 replies

JingleBellsJuliet · 26/12/2014 22:17

We were out playing in the snow, ds had his hood up and was covered in snow, pup (8month old JRT) really took exception to this, seem absolutely terrified of ds and started barking and growling with his tail between his legs. I put him back on the lead and made a fuss of him, and we started to walk towards home. When ds got close, pup flew at ds, snarling and teeth gnashing. I have no doubt that if he wasn't on the lead, he would've made contact :(

We've had issues with him reacting to strange dogs in this way, but, on advice of a trainer, I've been slowly getting closer and closer to new dogs, whilst treating him constantly, and we seem to be making headway. Generally, he does the snarly snappy thing for a few minutes, then wants to play, but he's never shown any aggression towards a person before, let alone ds and it's really unnerved me.

He's a very, very fearful, timid dog. He's scared of traffic, bikes, horses, loud noises etc, and it know this aggression stemmed from fear, as I don't think he recognised ds and it scared him, but I'm terrified that the next time it will be a strange child and I don't even want to think about that.

I'm going to get a muzzle tomorrow and try and get him used to that, and will book an appointment with the vets to see if I can get a referral to a behaviourist, but is there anything else I can do in the meantime? I'm not worried about him going for ds in the house as he loves him to bits and I really think he just didn't know it was him, but I don't want that situation to ever occur again. I'm really shocked and sad at the minute :(

OP posts:
TheNewWitchOfSWL · 26/12/2014 23:22

My sister was hospitalised and had an emergency surgery done to her hand on Christmas day because of a nervous (not stray) cat bit her. The cat attacked suddenly and apparently the trigger was the broom as he can't stand it. The cat's owner failed to let her know it when they arranged for her to feed the cat over the holidays.

I have been to see her today and she will probably have another surgery tomorrow. Loosing her hand in on the cards and even if she doesn't loose it she will need months of treatment and physiotherapy and her hand will never be the same again.
I have always been laid back about animals but I will be extra careful when around any animal from now on.

crapcrapcrapcrap · 26/12/2014 23:23

OP you've had some totally out there advice on this thread (I'm sure all of it is well meaning but clearly isn't being dished out from positions of knowledge, understanding and experience) and I think you probably know that your original planned course of action is a really sensible one.

At 8 months many dogs will go through a fearful phase - this is normal, although obviously you've already identified that your dog is of an anxious temperament and you're clearly getting good,appropriate support from your trainer. My advice would be not to panic, but to call in support for your own reassurance. This isn't a dealbreaker, and you're obviously sensible and aware of your responsibilities.

In a novel situation with a young, anxious dog, after the excitement and lack of routine over the last few days, all of the new sights, sounds and smells of Christmas your puppy has had a hell of a lot to deal with.

WeAllHaveWings · 26/12/2014 23:24

My nearly 2 year old lab can be nervous and wouldn't come to me last week when it was starting to get dark and I had my new furry parka hood up, just looked at me strangely and backed off until I realised and took my hood down. I can understand the pup not recognising your ds.

But the reaction to this would really worry me. Good luck with the behaviourist.

crapcrapcrapcrap · 26/12/2014 23:28

You cannot reinforce an emotion. Furthermore dogs cannot learn when they are in a state of fear, so reassurance does not impede progress in behaviour modification of fearful dogs. If a dog seeks it, it's fine to provide it. The idea that it is harmful to offer it has been put to bed by behaviorists a long time ago.

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 26/12/2014 23:34

That's an interesting concept, crapcrapcrapcrap. You think congratulating a dog for attacking a child is good training/ behaviour mod theory? I don't. Nor does any behaviourist I'd work with.

mumtobe01 · 26/12/2014 23:39

Couldn't agree with tobytoes more- you sounds very responsible and caring too :-) Such a shame your dog has demonstrated behaviour like this and I really hope you can get it sorted - it must be such a worry. I have hear that snow can mask a lot of smells for dogs so that could have meant your dog didn't recognise your son. My dog used to bark at kiddies with helmets on until she saw them more and more and accepted it was ok. Fingers crossed with some behaviourist training your dog will gain some confidence and become easier for you all. Good luck xx

crapcrapcrapcrap · 26/12/2014 23:39

I don't think it's likely that a dog recognises the concept of congratulation. I also don't think that unless any of us have seen the incident we're in a position to comment on it.

The dog was fearful, the OP responded by offering reassurance. Do you think if your child is scared of the doctor that telling them off for being scared is effective? Will reassuring them when they seek it encourage them to fear doctors? Of course not. It's basic learning theory.

Anyway, the OP has done no harm today, and she's had a fright and is addressing the situation sensibly. She's already identified a problem with anxiety and taken steps to get help for it. I don't see anything here worthy of criticism.

TotallySociallyInept · 26/12/2014 23:43

I don't know why but head and faces being covered is quite common for dogs to not recognise people and feel threatened.
I agree the making a fuss of him stuck out for me too. With a young Dog my first reaction would have been to approach your son and 're asure the Dog that you are not scared and the mystery person with the hood up is not a threat. If then the behaviour carried on I'd see a behaviorist. (which you have said you are)
The pup should take its cues and reassurances from you. All my Dogs have barked when someone knocks they will quiet when asked but watch the stranger closely if I greet new person with familiarity they relax and also do. If it was someone to read the meter or something they would just keep watching. You are they pack leader you set the rules and code of behaviour.
Sorry! Massive ramble proberly the alcohol
Blush
As you were

crapcrapcrapcrap · 26/12/2014 23:45

/headdesk

You aren't their pack leader, OP, you know that right?

Original poster
JingleBellsJuliet · 26/12/2014 23:46

Yes I know that Grin

OP posts:
crapcrapcrapcrap · 26/12/2014 23:50

Seriously, today must have been scary but your suggested course of action is fine. Just make sure whoever you see is an APBC member. If your husband lamped a burglar you wouldn't live in fear of him turning nasty forever more, would you? :) Good luck.

TotallySociallyInept · 26/12/2014 23:51

Sorry didn't come out right Blush haha but the do take behaviour cues from you. If you are not frighten they feel more reassured in there situation.

Had Dogs all my life but don't really talk all the technical talkGrin

Original poster
JingleBellsJuliet · 26/12/2014 23:52

If my husband lamped a burglar, I'd be more concerned where the husband came from Xmas Shock

OP posts:
crapcrapcrapcrap · 26/12/2014 23:55

Shock Blush

Sorry. As may be evident, I'm better with dogs than with people Grin

Haggisfish · 26/12/2014 23:59

Sorry op-my last post did sound quite twattish. Hope you manage to resolve the issue ok. Your course of action sounds fine as other, much more qualified people than me, have said! Smile

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 26/12/2014 23:59

*I don't think it's likely that a dog recognises the concept of congratulation."

Of course they do, CCCC, hence the general and indisputable success of reward based training, positive reinforcement and nilif! Timing is key, which is why rewarding negative behaviour (such as an attack) can be disastrous.

SistersOfPercy · 27/12/2014 00:00

He's 8 months old going through many changes and phases and pushing boundaries and the first suggestions are get rid?! Rather than train and work work an animal you'd have it pts or get rid?

And that is why shelters are so full and why 8-12 months is the most seen age for abandoned pups.

CheeseBuster · 27/12/2014 00:01

Was it his first time seeing snow? It is a pretty scary thing if you think about it. The sky is falling down and everything is cold and wet and smells different. He's still a puppy.

Was he a rescue, he sounds like he didn't have a very good start to be so nervous? Or any chance he is from a crap breeder/puppy farm if so these dogs can be completely messed up Xmas Sad

SistersOfPercy · 27/12/2014 00:05

Excellent point cheese, and it may well be related.
My boy saw his first snow tonight at 14 months and had no idea what to make of it at first. Must be very daunting to be a little dog in a snowstorm.

crapcrapcrapcrap · 27/12/2014 00:05

But the OP didn't reward it. She put the dog on a lead, which was precisely the right thing to do. She then offered reassurance.

If you understand reinforcement then you will understand how critical timing is. The "reward" you're so worried about cannot have occurred for at least several seconds after the aggression occurred, thereby rendering it an ineffective reinforcer anyway. Further to that, the dog was clearly still extremely anxious and fearful (as evidenced by the ongoing expression of aggression) and that also would render the offer of a "reward" as meaningless. Try feeding a dog which is so frightened they're showing aggression and you'll see what I mean. Really scared dogs don't eat.

TotallySociallyInept · 27/12/2014 00:05

Making a fuss and And putting a the dog on a lead and walking away Is reinforcing the threat. You have said yes the person with the hood is a threat and well done for noticing now we will move away from the threat. Threat then follows you dog needs to deal with threat.............

crapcrapcrapcrap · 27/12/2014 00:09

Oh FGS please totally what are you on about? You cannot reinforce a threat. Reinforcement is something you do for behaviours - not emotions, or experiences.

Original poster
JingleBellsJuliet · 27/12/2014 00:09

The very last resort would be getting rid of the pup. Obviously, if this happens repeatedly, I have to put my child first, but I think he needs help rather than passing the problem onto someone else. Realistically, as much as the idea of him getting rehomed by a lovely rescue to a nice countryside home with no contact with kids is very nice, I know what actually happens is he would spend an age in kennels, as he's not an appealing little dog (in that he wouldn't be sitting at the edge of his cage looking all cute and screaming "take me home") then probably be pts, and that is not something I want to see happen.

OP posts:
Original poster
JingleBellsJuliet · 27/12/2014 00:12

Yes it was his first time seeing snow. Not a rescue, nor from crap breeders; they are long time friends and both mum and dad are well balanced, lovely dogs that I know well and see often. I would never have considered a JRT until I met his parents, but they are such nice dogs, I thought their offspring was sure to be the same. He's just a bit of an oddity! I had him at 8 weeks, carried him everywhere to experience as much as possible, have only introduced him to "nice" dogs (he loves dogs once he gets over the initial fear) and he's never had a single bad experience with either a dog or a person. I really don't know where his fear/aggression comes from.

OP posts:
crapcrapcrapcrap · 27/12/2014 00:13

Sorry for being ratty but this happens all the time - a concerned poster gets inundated with advice from people who really aren't qualified or knowledgeable about the subject and in many cases the advice is no more than a mishmash of opinion, soundbites assimilated from TV programmes and hysteria. It helps nobody. We're dealing with a potentially dangerous situation, so let's go for getting the professionals in rather than the internet dog whisperers.