Puppy has just really gone for ds :(

[JingleBellsJuliet]

We were out playing in the snow, ds had his hood up and was covered in snow, pup (8month old JRT) really took exception to this, seem absolutely terrified of ds and started barking and growling with his tail between his legs. I put him back on the lead and made a fuss of him, and we started to walk towards home. When ds got close, pup flew at ds, snarling and teeth gnashing. I have no doubt that if he wasn't on the lead, he would've made contact :(

We've had issues with him reacting to strange dogs in this way, but, on advice of a trainer, I've been slowly getting closer and closer to new dogs, whilst treating him constantly, and we seem to be making headway. Generally, he does the snarly snappy thing for a few minutes, then wants to play, but he's never shown any aggression towards a person before, let alone ds and it's really unnerved me.

He's a very, very fearful, timid dog. He's scared of traffic, bikes, horses, loud noises etc, and it know this aggression stemmed from fear, as I don't think he recognised ds and it scared him, but I'm terrified that the next time it will be a strange child and I don't even want to think about that.

I'm going to get a muzzle tomorrow and try and get him used to that, and will book an appointment with the vets to see if I can get a referral to a behaviourist, but is there anything else I can do in the meantime? I'm not worried about him going for ds in the house as he loves him to bits and I really think he just didn't know it was him, but I don't want that situation to ever occur again. I'm really shocked and sad at the minute :(

Op, you've already had some good advice on here so I won't give anymore! However, as you've mentioned it is very timid anyway, I'd like to add that a dog which is nervous by nature will always be this and you will always have to manage that. With a carefully selected behaviourists advice and training, it will get better but it will never change. It does mean many years of hard(er) work for you and your family.

A reactive dog needs experienced owners, I'm not sure from your posts if this is your first dog? Our behaviourist told us to forget about my 'idea' of what a family pet I wanted my reactive dog to be and just deal with what she really was. Which was pretty much scared of everything!

Yes, give your dog a chance and try all avenues but ultimately you will need to decide if your happy to deal with many more years of reactivity and training and adjunct your life accordingly.

Hi OP the only sensible posts on this page have come from CCC, who doesn't base her advice on personal experiences of 'what I did with a rescue dog', Cesar Milan or any other anecdotal nonsense, but a recogniseable understanding of learning theory and evidence-based dog behaviour.
I think your plan of being referred to an APBC registered behaviourist and keeping your son and others safe by muzzling til then is fine. For what it's worth my dogs are scared of people in hoods, turbans, cycling helmets etc and my (professional) experience is that this is a relatively common phenomenon and something I now teach owners to specifically desensitise to.
You're fine to reassure a fearful dog just as you would a child. As CCC has said you cannot reinforce emotions, only behaviour, and reassurance is not the same as reinforcement (also not the same as 'congratulations' but hey ho)
Also I'm not sure how previous posters managed to socialise their dogs 'on four feet' prior to vaccination without exposing them to infectious disease (and as a vet I'd be interested to know how this is done) but the majority of dogs get their early learning experiences this way and as they are dogs and not parrots, it doesn't elevate their (non-existent pack) status

It sounds as if you're already taking a great approach to doing the best for your dog so please ignore the 'I've had 3 rescue dogs and never had a problem' smugness. Good luck and hang in there. Not sure if your dog is neutered but the only other thing I'd suggest is not to neuter as this can exacerbate fear-related behaviours (if he is neutered this may explain his behaviour somewhat)

OP - I came back to mention neutering. I know the evidence is far from clear cut in this regard, but I have chosen not to neuter our 1 year old cocker (we have a neutered 2 year old springer fwiw, who is quite bold and aloof in nature). There is however enough evidence to suggest that neutering may increase his fear for me to hesitate to do so.

But I should have read sunshine's post, before I wrote mine

Sadly, it's a bit late for that as pup was neutered at 6 months! The vet felt it would help his dog aggression which is why I had him done then. To be fair, absolutely nothing has changed in his behaviour since neutering.

All I'd like to add is a little comment in response to this:

"Stamping out the views which don't align with your own personal experience does not make your advice more right or accurate"

It is essential to understand that behaviour is a science. It isn't about opinion or experience. It is about facts. You will, for example, hear many people saying "I've formula fed three children and it's never done them any harm". That's an opinion, and an experience, but the facts of the matter are that formula feeding carries risks and has been shown to increase the likelihood of several disease conditions.

Science isn't about opinions. The plural of anecdote isn't data. Somebody could have forty years' experience in caring for reactive dogs but if they've approached this from the viewpoint of being the pack leader, have a poor understanding of the risks and benefits of socialisation or don't understand the simple principles of associative learning then I'm afraid they are not appropriately qualified to give advice. A witch doctor could have generations of knowledge about which leaf to rub on your elbow to fix meningitis, but if your child had a life threatening problem I'm guessing you'd want to see someone with a bit more understanding of the science :)

Well, it clearly hasn't worked carrying said dog on all fours, has it?!

No doubt in another five years the current training advice will be de-bunked too. I don't follow any advice to the letter and much is dependent on the dog's personality. But I do believe a dog likes to know where it stands in a house and that isn't as the decision maker.

I have met countless fearful aggressive little dogs. My sister was attacked by one last year. In almost all cases it's painfully obvious why.

The theory is that the testosterone surge at puberty through to adulthood supports the development of self confidence and so helps to mitigate any natural fearful or anxious behaviours. StrongOne and I are probably cross posting a bit but it sounds as if we're on the sane page. Individual responses to neutering will of course vary but behavioural trends and responses within a population can be measured. Sometimes it's as simple as neutering once a dog has reached emotional/physical maturity rather than at the regulation 'one size fits all' approach at 6 months. Unfortunately it sounds as if your vet gave you not great advice (and I'm a vet too) so def see an APBC registered behaviourist

Rooner, the current advice hasn't really changed for twenty years or more. It's just taken a long, long time to make it from the research papers to the public mindset, no thanks to the likes of Jan Fennel and Cesar Millan.

Actuality that's worded badly - it's thanks to people like them that it's hard to make progress with the public's understanding of behaviour.

It's already been mentioned, but the blue cross video on muzzle training is what you need...and a behaviourist.

Personally while treating it seriously - I wouldn't worry too much that it means anything in relation to your DS other than that he got scared of the combination of snow and a hood.

Oh and you do too carry large breed puppies until they've had all their vaccinations.

"Well, it clearly hasn't worked carrying said dog on all fours, has it?!"

I have two dogs. One is utterly bomb proof, took to everything and anything like a duck to water. The other is a bag of nerves and has needed far more input, and will continue to need it. A lot comes down to personality and genetics, a bit like people and personalities I suppose - no-one would be stupid enough to lump humans together and expect them to be the same apart from my sister , it's too generalised.

What may look painfully obvious to you is probably more down to personality and lack of training, but unless you're an expert, it's unlikely you know what signals and triggers to watch for.

And Rooner's last post is a great example of why anecdote is not evidence, and coincidence is not causation.

Not sure how it explains why all the larger breed dogs that are carried (cos at 12 weeks they're still pretty small!) aren't aggressive?

Just as an alternate explanation for the 'countless fear aggressive little dogs' How about this:
When a large breed dog shows early signs of irritation/behavioural aggression - what happens? Generally we remove it from the situation creating the anxiety or we remove the trigger. We take it seriously because we don't want the behaviour to escalate.

When a small dog does the same, often owners laugh, and there's a sense of the behaviour being comedic and the dog bring 'too big for his boots'. No reassurance is forthcoming, and the small dog learns it's fears are not being taken seriously and learns it needs to escalate it's behaviour. Hence it is more likely to be 'snappy' when scared again. Basic learning theory.

Not sure which kind of dogs you've met that are too large to be carried at 12 weeks Or how you introduce them to sights sounds etc on all fours without risking infectious disease. But I'd be interested to know

You're absolutely right in that advice changes - it changes as we learn and understand more, just as in the same way that we now put babies to sleep on their backs rather than their fronts to reduce the risks of cot death. Just because advice changes it doesn't mean that current best practice is not valid - it means we all have to work hard to keep up with the evidence if we're going to give advice.

I am happy to be corrected by such experts.

But this would go against every dog owning instinct I have, and I believe I am a reasonably instinctive and good dog owner.

So my question is - how do you socialise large dogs? My large dog as a puppy would not have been able to be carried.

No it clearly hasn't worked with this dog, but sadly my crystal ball was malfunctioning so I didn't know this would happen. The other side of the argument is that had I not socialised pup by carrying him in those early weeks, maybe by now he would have actually bitten someone through fear. No-one knows what he would've been like had I not tried my best to do what I thought was right by following advice from professionals. Maybe the way I should have trained him is different, but I did the same as I've done with the other 5 pups I've had over the last 25 years, and he's the first one that has been fear aggressive, so maybe it's just down to breed/genetics etc.

I carried my Rottweiler puppy until he was fully vaccinated, he went everywhere I could take him and met friends' vaccinated dogs in non public spaces ...then when he was vaccinated he walked.

Same as is recommended for any size dog.

Cross-post sunshine...

When I have witnessed the countless aggressions from small dogs (even to my own, large, well mannered dog) the owners pick the little dog up! This makes me so cross.

I never carried my large breed puppy. He had an issue with large men so I got friends to come to the house bearing biscuits. He is a naturally fearful dog and I have worked really hard - never, ever have I carried him! He has 4 legs!

Are you honestly telling me the current dog training advice is nirvana perfection and won't ever change? That's not how life works!!

Puppies are usually socialised from 8-9 week old when they're rehomed. I've seen A LOT of breeds at that age and can't think of one too big to be carried (unless the owner has a medical issue).

A friend of mine owns giant breeds. She has a dog buggy (like a baby buggy with a mesh box on it), she takes socialising very seriously and every day will take unvaccinated puppies out into different situations.
She lives in the middle of nowhere, but travels to towns so her puppies experience different sights and noises.
If she's only got one puppy to socialise, she carries it. Maybe she's very, very strong :)

The trouble with pack theory is that until fairly recently it has been the most mainstream theory regarding dog theory, so for many it does feel instinctive, because it's probably all you know, but that doesn't mean it's right.
IME most dogs will be fine, but if you have a dog who is nervy (whether from its life experience or simply part of its nature) you are more likely to have a problem with it when persevering with pack theory training.

You may still be a good dog owner, but I would read around the subject, it's very interesting.

Roonerspism - carrying them isn't training advice, it's medical advice to avoid catching things like parvo.

are you honestly telling me that current dog training advice is nirvana perfection and won't ever change?

Er no Rooner I n fact I said the opposite, reported below for clarity!

You're absolutely right in that advice changes - it changes as we learn and understand more, just as in the same way that we now put babies to sleep on their backs rather than their fronts to reduce the risks of cot death. Just because advice changes it doesn't mean that current best practice is not valid - it means we all have to work hard to keep with the evidence if we're going to give advice.

Resposted not reported!

Ta also worth noting that the socialisation window in puppies lasts up to 13weeks and vaccination courses can be complete by 10 weeks with the puppy able to socialise 'on all 4s' shortly after this, so there's usually time for safe socialisation of vaccinated puppies.

So what I am saying sunshine is that I will raise one eyebrow in five years when "advice" changes yet again!

I remember when the advice used to be to use a choke chain....

I am bowing out. I am but a fool in a thread full of experts. But you won't ever see me carrying a puppy!

OP there is some really scary, dangerous and downright wrong information given out on this thread.

You must do what you planned - contact a qualified behaviourist and follow their advice. Only they can tell you in RL the best plan of action. Usually these cases can be managed well, if the correct behavioural modification plan is followed and you will have a safe environment for your DC and dog.

I personally would hide this thread.