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The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

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Original poster

Puppy has just really gone for ds :(

136 replies

JingleBellsJuliet · 26/12/2014 22:17

We were out playing in the snow, ds had his hood up and was covered in snow, pup (8month old JRT) really took exception to this, seem absolutely terrified of ds and started barking and growling with his tail between his legs. I put him back on the lead and made a fuss of him, and we started to walk towards home. When ds got close, pup flew at ds, snarling and teeth gnashing. I have no doubt that if he wasn't on the lead, he would've made contact :(

We've had issues with him reacting to strange dogs in this way, but, on advice of a trainer, I've been slowly getting closer and closer to new dogs, whilst treating him constantly, and we seem to be making headway. Generally, he does the snarly snappy thing for a few minutes, then wants to play, but he's never shown any aggression towards a person before, let alone ds and it's really unnerved me.

He's a very, very fearful, timid dog. He's scared of traffic, bikes, horses, loud noises etc, and it know this aggression stemmed from fear, as I don't think he recognised ds and it scared him, but I'm terrified that the next time it will be a strange child and I don't even want to think about that.

I'm going to get a muzzle tomorrow and try and get him used to that, and will book an appointment with the vets to see if I can get a referral to a behaviourist, but is there anything else I can do in the meantime? I'm not worried about him going for ds in the house as he loves him to bits and I really think he just didn't know it was him, but I don't want that situation to ever occur again. I'm really shocked and sad at the minute :(

OP posts:

TotallySociallyInept · 27/12/2014 00:13

Err yes you can.....
You either show the dog their is nothing to fear or you don't... Which tells the dog you are right they are a threat

SistersOfPercy · 27/12/2014 00:13

Juliet, just to say, my post wasn't aimed at you but the first few replies. I can see you are keen to work with the dog and give him a chance.

TotallySociallyInept · 27/12/2014 00:15

I did also say if the first encounter carried on that she should see a behaviorist. But as she already stated she would.....
I don't see you problem

crapcrapcrapcrap · 27/12/2014 00:15

You can only change the dog's response to a situation by changing their emotional state. You cannot do that by demonstration.

You need to desensitise and countercondition. The OP has already been working on these principles with her puppy's fear of other dogs.

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 27/12/2014 00:17

CCCC, please advise us of your 'qualifications', given your opinion is apparently more valuable that those of others? Not that a qualification is required to become a canine behaviourist, ofc...

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 27/12/2014 00:17

CCCC, please advise us of your 'qualifications', given your opinion is apparently more valuable that those of others? Not that a qualification is required to become a canine behaviourist, ofc...

TotallySociallyInept · 27/12/2014 00:17

I'm not and don't claim to be a dog whisper?!? I was giving an opinion in were it might of gone wrong in the first instance

crapcrapcrapcrap · 27/12/2014 00:22

I'm not a behaviorist, nor have I ever claimed to be. I'm a vet working in mainly companion animals, with an interest in dog behaviour (specifically education and bite prevention). I undertake some behaviour consultation work, referring complex cases on to an APBC member where necessary. I am the owner of a reactive, fear aggressive elderly lurcher and an adolescent crossbreed with separation anxiety. I am not the most experienced or qualified poster on the board but I do have a pretty firm grounding in dog behaviour and treatment of behaviour problems, since it's what I do for a living.

TotallySociallyInept · 27/12/2014 00:37

CCCC have some I've had plentyyour job sounds very iinteresting

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 27/12/2014 00:40

I do it for free. Rehabilitating and modifying the behaviour of rescues, where possible and I have done for a very long time.

My point is, your advice is no more or less valuable than that of any other experienced handler, who has personally dealt with, worked with, rehabilitated or helped a wide range of dogs, with an even wider range of issues.

To dismiss others opinions as those of people under qualified or lacking enough knowledge or experience in the field is rather rude.

Are we not all entitled to try to help, where we feel we do have relevant experience? Isn't an open forum likely to gather opinions based upon a wide range of experiences and views? Stamping out the views which don't align with your own personal experience does not make your advice more right or accurate.

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 27/12/2014 00:41

I do it for free. Rehabilitating and modifying the behaviour of rescues, where possible and I have done for a very long time.

To dismiss others opinions as those of people under qualified or lacking enough knowledge or experience in the field is rather rude.

Roonerspism · 27/12/2014 00:48

I own a dog that can be fearful and have resolved a few of his issues. This is my only dog qualification.

When you say you "carried" the dog around, it did alarm me. Do you mean physically, in your arms? IMHO this will have elevated your dog's "status" above that of your son's.

Little dogs still need to be treated as, well, dogs....

I hate to be negative but I don't personally think jack Russell's make good family pets and one that is exhibiting this behaviour at 8 months would concern me as you can't afford to make any (more?) mistakes. I think I would contact jack Russell rescue or similar.

TotallySociallyInept · 27/12/2014 00:49

Procastina here have some too

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 27/12/2014 01:08

Sorry, that was to CCCC!

Cheers, Totally

Original poster

JingleBellsJuliet · 27/12/2014 01:36

Yes carried, as in puppy not old enough to go down as hadn't had his injections so I carried him, as advised by the vet, and every thread I've ever read on here regarding socialisation. Is that the wrong thing to have done? I was under the impression that there is a very small socialisation window with pups and you have to expose them to as much as possible, even before they are fully vaccinated. I certainly don't ever carry him anymore, he's too bloody heavy for a start!

OP posts:

Roonerspism · 27/12/2014 05:55

I totally agree about the socialisation bit.

But I am very surprised it was suggested you do this by carrying him as a pup. This makes no sense to me because he has to live as an adult dog, in all fours.

I think he sees your son as "lower in the pack". I know lots of folk dislike Cesar Milan's stuff but it made the most sense to me.

So making a "fuss" when he went for your son was wrong as it reinforced this. It would be about getting your son to feed the dog, sitting nicely first, perhaps walking him, not letting the dog in the sofa without being asked etc.

I am sure a more qualified person will jump down my throat but IMHO you have been given bad advice to carry the dog, and fuss over it when it's been aggressive....

NCbutIstillmightbeouted · 27/12/2014 06:12

Hi OP

My dog is fearful of all dogs and will now attack if they are in his space, he is also fearful of strangers (this is due to attacks by other dogs). We have and are still working with a behavioural therapist. Because my dog has a history of nearly biting, its unlikely any chairty would rehome him and in her advice, it would be better to put him down.

It has taken us months of hard work, where he can now tolerate a stranger in the house and he can get close to other dogs (with a muzzle on)

My first thought in this and always has been is to my DS. I have had to keep them seperated using gates, and various methods.

My dog has never gone for my DS, but for me to be able to keep my dog I had to keep my them both safe (DS is a toddler) when they are in the same room, they play together happily and the best of friends, but even now, four months down the line. I don't take my eye of either of them.

Things that we have done, is muzzle training (check out the blue cross video) like you we treat all the time with other dogs. Get a Kong, it is fantastic for distraction and the biggest change of all, is the change in food. My behavioural theorpist said that some dog food is like blue smarties for some dogs.

Not sure if that helps, but the best thing I ever did was get my behavioural theropist

Focusfocus · 27/12/2014 07:46

"But I am very surprised it was suggested you do this by carrying him as a pup. This makes no sense to me because he has to live as an adult dog, in all fours. "

----

Uhm. The OP clearly said the carrying was before the dog was vaccinated. Ask any vet - an unvaccinated puppy is definitely not allowed to go walking on public areas where infected dogs or other unvaccinated dogs may have been. So the veterinary guidelines are to expose them to the sights and sounds of the world early on - before their vaccinations are completed around 12 weeks - to use that narrow 8-12 week period to show them the world by carrying them around so that, as unvaccinated puppies, they are not touching/licking/in contact with public areas but get used to the sights and sounds. It's absolutely common and sound advice for the pre-vaccination period.

Regarding the JRT not being a family pet - well we are sitting a 6 month old JRT now at our house, haven't heard a yap once, is the most obedient puppy I have met, and makes our little Shih Tzu cross puppy look like a hoodlum!!

OP if you have the time, energy and money, of course do intensive intensive training, which you will. Giving up a family pet is devastating and those who suggest it as a simple black and white scenario of - who do you value more, child or pet, simples!- are missing the complexities of the matter. I wish you the very best in dealing with it.

judydoes · 27/12/2014 07:51

FWIW, my Sister's dog went for her once. He's placid to a fault by nature, lovely, calm dog and always has been.

He was 4 when she came into the house wearing a furry coat. He didn't recognise her and went for her. One-off, never repeated and a mistake/accident.

I don't think this incident means that this is an aggressive,dangerous dog forever-he's still a puppy and everything's new, he's still learning.

Roonerspism · 27/12/2014 08:07

focus I don't disagree re socialising or the vaccinations. But this isn't what happens with large dogs. We can't carry them round, for obvious reasons.

So we socialise them on all fours.

It makes no sense to me to let a puppy think the world is safe in your owner's arms during the critical socialisation period, then expect him to deal with things on all fours thereafter.

I don't need a dog behaviourist to tell me that - it's common sense!

Focusfocus · 27/12/2014 08:14

I am sorry I don't understand - you take an unvaccinated puppy outdoors in public, on fields, public places etc, without a completed set of first vaccinations?

Our puppy got her first vaccination at 8 weeks. Second vaccination at ten weeks. We were allowed to take her out on all fours from. 11 weeks.

In that interm three week period, she went to public places a few times, was carried each time. From eleven weeks she wasn't. It hasn't scarred her for life, she is the most confident little puppy who makes friends with dogs ten times her size.

I am truly surprised that you would take an unvaccinated puppy out on all fours in outdoor places. Has your vet suggested/supported this? My highly qualified and excellent trainer has six German shepherd dogs ranging between 6 months to 7 years and even she carried them for the unvaccinated period for the very few times in those 2-3 weeks that they were taken outside.

Roonerspism · 27/12/2014 08:19

What I'm saying is, I never carried my dog.

OP said she carried her dog everywhere during socialisation. I am saying this is going to be a bad idea for some dogs. It's obviously not the whole story, but this little dog sounds as if it aggressive when scared. Carrying a fearful dog as a pup makes no sense to me as you are socialising it in the safety of your arms.

HoHoEffingHo · 27/12/2014 08:32

I thought the point of carrying a puppy around in those few critical weeks was precisely that they are experiencing new things whilst feeling safe, so when they are on all fours the world isn't a scary place. Of course dogs have different temperaments, so some may find these experiences easy to cope with, some less easy.

Pack theory and Cesar Milan may make total sense to you, but fortunately for dogs pack theory has been discredited (as has been mentioned on this thread). Dogs are dogs, domesticated pets, not wolves.

Original poster

JingleBellsJuliet · 27/12/2014 08:44

Yes I thought that was the point too. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't! If I'd opened my thread saying pup had been confined to the house until 12 weeks, I'd have been jumped on by someone saying it was my fault he was like this for not socialising him by carrying him, but, having socialised him, it's my fault for doing it wrong!

OP posts:

needastrongone · 27/12/2014 08:47

You may be carrying it safely in your arms roonerspin, but that is far better surely than not socialising it at all during pretty much the most critical period in the pups life? It's absolutely standard advice these days anyway, so it may not make sense to you, but it would appear to the wider canine industry. In fact, if you Google 'Puppy Socialisation Plan', which has been developed by the KC and Dogs Trust jointly, part of their plan during the period when the puppy isn't fully vaccinated specifically encourages carrying the puppy around outside.

I am just going to point out, probably for the 100000 time, that pack theory, dominance, being pack leader, dogs knowing their place in the pack has been widely and soundly dis-proven, and has for years now. The theory was based on flawed material and even the founder of the theory has long acknowledged this to be the case. I am happy to provide an extensive list of reading material to substantiate this, if people want it

Can I also just point out the Cesar Millan's books were withdrawn from sale last year from Pets at Home, given the nature of their advice. He is not an expert, he has no qualifications, he is a dick to be quite frank

OP - I am sorry this has happened, it sounds like you are entirely sensible and are working with a behaviourist that uses positive methods. I hope you and your son are ok today. The lack of routine, snow and hood probably contributed.

FWIW our cocker is by nature extremely timid and nervous. He was extensively socialised and comes from a reputable breeder. It's just him, I think.

There's some excellent books of BAT (behaviour adjustment training) out there too, that might help.

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