I'm ready for a flaming but why are breeders so badly thought of

[cedmonds]

HI
I have lurked on here for a while and have had a few posts as well.
What I want to know is why are breeders so badly thought of.
I understand back yard breeders etc but when people are breeding responsibly and to improve line etc what is the problem with it.
I am also know that there are lots of unwanted dogs etc but that is not ever breeders fault.
We do everything we can for our pups in making sure they have a good start in life and go to the bet possible homes be it working homes or pet homes.
All the bitches and pups have all the testing required and more. The pups are vet checked.They are breed in the home not in kennels and they are well socialized and used to house hold noise etc.

We will grill anyone who comes to see the pups and if we could we would do home check as well. We also will not let anyone have a puppy untill they have been to see the litter a few times.

All puppies have a contract stating that if they do need to be re homed at any time they must contact us first and we will have the pup back.They also have endorsements stating that they can not be breed from untill we have seen proof of testing and what stud dog/ bitch they want to use. 9 times out of ten we say no!!

We advise people to neuter etc but obviously we can not make them do it .
So what is so wrong with what we are doing we do not make any money out of it and its bloody hard work.

Because for every breeder like you there's a hundred others who are Doing It Wrong. People think they can make money from breeding their family pet, no health testing, no concern for improving the breed or the breed's welfare, no concept of basic dog training, correct diet and socialisation, no awareness of the fact that so many dogs wind up unwanted and thus dead, just £££ signs in their eyes.

I worry that a lot of people are suckered in by it, people are starting to become more aware of what to look for when buying a pup and most can now probably recognise a puppy farmer but are still so easily caught out by well worded adverts and backyard breeders who talk the talk but actually couldn't give a fig about the long term outcomes.

I will admit to having issues with certain breeds full stop, breeding to an arbitrary standard based wholly on appearance has led to a proliferation of freakish looking animals, add to it the vast majority who are either ignorant of or can't be bothered with the fuss and expense of health testing before they breed and the subsequent rate of genetic disease in dogs is unsurprising and very disturbing.

I think the whole backyard breeder epidemic, the rise of the 'designer crossbreed', the DDA etc. is indicative of a larger crisis affecting dogs in the UK; evangelising slightly here but In Defence of Dogs is a good read if you're so inclined.

I have a bitch here who I could have made a small fortune from, excepting any emergency costs for a caesarean or similar - an increasingly popular and very attractive breed, desired colour, right temperament, excellent hips, eyes clear, great lines, competition wins, bred in the home. £800 a pup would not be impossible. But you know what, there's 20 more the same as her in the breed rescue right now and this time next month there'll be 20 more. I would not be able to sleep at night for wondering if her pups were in a council pound, counting down the days until they are put to sleep. I spayed her before her first season.

IMO well breed pups from responsible breeders do not contribute to rescue, in an ideal world only those who were willing to put the work and effort in would breed and would do a darn good job of it. Not all dog breeders are the same.

I think that if people are willing to spend £500 upwards on a pet, they intend to look after it, and not let it go to a rescue.

Trust me, ALL breeders contribute to the problem of dogs leaving the pound in black bin liners. No time to explain now but just wanted to say it, will come back and fight their corner later.

I want to say something about this too:

"if we could we would do home check as well."

BULLSHIT.

We manage it, despite the fact that unlike you, we don't make a profit out of the dogs for whom we find new homes.

Recall, someone paid £800 for that selfsame bitch I described above when she was an eight week old puppy. At five and a half months old she was given up to rescue. I paid an adoption fee of £150.

The fact that she had dug and chewed her way through an internal plaster wall, most of an external brick wall and the neighbour's solid wood fence, all the time howling like a banshee, might have had something to do with it.

So what's stopping you?

If though, in some sort of fantasy land, all bad breeders could be done away with and only the good ones left behind then surely rescue's role would eventually diminish?

What is the problem with the new crossbreeds? Does it not help reduce the genetic issues so many pedigree have - genuine question not trying to shit stir

Because just like there is a chance that only the good bit's of a breed can be passed on, so can all the genetic faults that 'over breeding' over the years has caused.

But surely it dilutes the genetic problems as essentially a cross breed is a mongrol

Firstly WE DO NOT MAKE A PROFIT. By the time we have taken the money out for all the food testing vet fees etc there is no money left to make a profit. We would do a home check and have done in the past but when puppies are going 12 hr drive away to people we know and have champ show dogs etc it is unrealistic to do a 24 hr drive.
By the way we also foster dogs as well and have re homed many unwanted dogs.

Also if eveyone need a licence to breed it would stop a lot people think twice. Where as now i know our concil says more than five litters a year.
I do think there is something that needs doing to stop back yard breeders and puppy farming. But when people are breeding working lines and they are being bred responsibly then they should be allowed to do it.

I must admit that I struggle to see how responsible breeders make much of a profit. Doing it all properly is so expensive and time-consuming- I couldn't do it.

I was looking at American Alsation/Alsatian Shepalutes last night and that looks like a great example of breeding - breeding out all the hip problems that the original GSD breeders caused.

cedmonds - I don't think DBF's reason is anything to do with profit. There are more than enough dogs available right now for everyone who wants a dog, without anymore being born. So many healthy animals are put down just because they don't have a home. If breeder dogs weren't available, then people would have to rescue dogs. If that happened for just a year then I would of thought it would make a HUGE impact in the rescue dog situation.

I also don't know why responsible breeders like you can't have a network of home checkers just like rescue centres do. I got mine from a place which was a 5 hour drive away, but the home checker they asked to visit me lived nearby.

helpmabob, it's a common misconception. Take labradoodles as an example - hip dysplasia is known in both labradors and poodles. The mere act of crossing the two breeds isn't enough to magically cancel out the possibility of HD.

The problem with the crossbreeds is that they aren't eligible for KC registration and so you lose any permanent record of their pedigree - without having those kind of records it's impossible to identify the source of any genetic abnormalities and eradicate those lines from breeding stock. I know I have ishoos with the KC but pedigree records are (or should be!) essential tools in eradicating these kind of conditions.

In an ideal world the pedigree certificate is proof that your dog comes from five or more generations of dogs who are the best in their field, whether that is working or showing, with outstanding health test results, the real cream of the crop, all with the aim of producing the perfect example of that breed. In reality there's nothing to stop people breeding from dogs with heritable conditions.

lebooof By the time you have spent
£200 ish for a bitch to be hip scored
£700+for stud free
£240 ish for food for bitch per year( which we would pay for even if we do not breed from)
£240 for tattooing pups
£40 for vet check of pups
£300 for eye and hearing tests of pups
£40 for food for pups
£100 for vet check and bloods of bitch before mating
£400 for a life time of testing of bitch
Kennel club registration
Plus all the normal jabs worming treatment for fleas etc
All the bitches are kept untill the end of there life they are never re-homed when the cant breed any more or and unable to breed at all. Above the costs above you have got all the show fees as well but we would do that what ever.

"Also if eveyone need a licence to breed it would stop a lot people think twice. Where as now i know our concil says more than five litters a year."

The law in England states that a breeder's license is needed for more than FOUR litters bred by an individual or any family member, even if from a different address, in any 12 month period - so I guess that you can't be resident in England.

I absolutely agree with you about breeders' licenses. The whole law needs a complete overhaul and IMHO a person breeding ANY number of bitches should be licensed and inspected, and subject to the restrictions which those who currently breed 4 or more litters per 12 month are required to observe.

With regard to the fact that breeders don't homecheck and that you are citing distance as an excuse... I'll say it again.

Bullshit.

We manage it despite distance, if necessary using other, trusted rescuers or volunteers to carry out the task. If we can't obtain or carry out a homecheck we tell the potential adopter to seek a dog from a rescue which is closer to their home. It ain't rocket science!

As I understand it there is - or breeders tell me that there should be and to avoid a breeder if this is not the case - a fair amount of communication between the better breeders. They know each other, can recommend a fellow breeder if they themselves don't have any puppies planned, know the good, the bad and the gossip... just like rescue so there is no excuse for breeders not to use or develop a network of helpful peers to enable them to obtain homechecks. We manage it.

And when that can't be done maybe breeders should advise that the potential owner seeks a pup from a reputable owner closer to home?

We manage that too.

Yes, that's what I thought. I dread to think the corners that less scrupulous
people must cut to feel it's worth their while.

Thanks for that toboldlygo, I find it all quite confusing.

*Gah! A reputable breeder of course, not a reputable owner.

80% of our pups are even kept by us to improve lines or go to people we know well and we see those pups a lot on the circuit.
We have been breeding as a family for 30 odd years and have never know of a dog that has been rescued we have had people ask us to take a dog back because family circumstances and they are no longer able to care for the dog.

Have to disagree with you Katharine!

"In time, Lois acknowledged the need for a large breed of dog without working qualities that could live with limited boundaries and minimal exercise. In 1987, Lois developed a standard of a large breed of dog with a companion dog disposition and the look of a wolf."

Some lazy American dude wanted a pet wolf that he didn't have to walk.

For what it's worth there is now a huge distinction between the show GSD and the working type, like so many breeds. The standards for the working GSD are extremely high and demands a totally sound dog, the battery of health, temperament and working tests they go through to reach the top levels is amazing. The standard for the show type is how slopey it looks.

1. homecheck is an essential. if distance is an issue, get another doggy person in the area to go for you.

2. Crossbreeding is no panacaea, and can result in having to test for the genetic disorders particular to two or more breeds...if well-intended. if not well-intended, is just about making money.

3. i think there are some dog owners who for good reasons would never get a rescue and therefore there is a place for reputable breeders. the very nature of the reputable breeder is they don't breed often anyway....

4. generally most people could home a rescue instead

I think you named the reason DBF. There is NO "network of helpful peers to enable them to obtain homechecks", because this industry is so bloody competitive it is unreal. They do not have the interest of dogs at heart "no-matter what", but they are interested in their lines and their kennel show credentials.

However, there are some truely wonderful breeders out there, but they are VERY rare.

Do you know, I said the same thing twice over about homechecking! Durr!