Collie keeps snapping at my 3 year old. Please help.

[CelestialstarlightsPassion]

We bought a beautiful 12 month old rough collie who came to live with us just over two weeks ago. She is simply beautiful in every way and we have all very quickly fallen in love with her. The problem is she keeps trying to bite our DS(3).

We had assumed that she is just trying to establish her place in the pack, so with the advice of the dog trainer at her obedience class we are trying to teach her where she is in the pack. We make sure she is always last to leave and enter the house. she is the last to be made a fuss of when we come home from work etc and we give DS her food to put down to her. So far nothing we have done is working. We have tried turning our back on her and ignoring her and using loud noises to distract her when she tries to bite. But I'm now at a loss for what to try next.

Also I am pretty convinced she knows that what she is doing wrong because she waits until she thinks we aren't watching to do it. She'll also try to bite when he isn't watching or when his back is turned too.

Any advice that anyone can give me would be truly appreciated as I really need her to stop doing this. Also if anyone has ideas about why she is doing this would be helpful too (in case it isn't a pecking order pack thing) DH thinks she is just playing but I feel it is more sinister than that. She has snarled at him twice since she arrived but that was around food. Generally when she "goes" for him it is quietly and swiftly.

Thanks for reading

Didn't want to leave this unanswered.

She's a collie. She is bred to herd and work sheep/cattle. She is highly inteligent and she will find a job to do if she hasn't been given one. In this case, it's herding your kids. Because she is considering them as small live-stock, she is nipping them to make them move where she wants them to. As an example, our working cattle dog (Border collie, spends all day working with cows) will BITE the tails and feet of cows she wants to move if they don't move quick enough.

A lot of the behaviour stuff about "packs" and "pack heriarchy" is a lot of outdated old crap - Cesar Milan the Dog Whisperer is also talking complete bullshit a pile of old crap. What a dog needs is absolute consistency regarding behaviour from everyone in the household and clear boundaries/guidelines.

Wiccaweys Border Collie rescue will give behavioural advice regarding any type of collie over the phone. www.wiccaweys.com They are very, very good.

Ooh thanks QuietTiger That is very interesting indeed and makes me feel less worried about the situation in respect that it isn't displaying a dislike or an aggression towards him but instead a natural response. You are correct of course. She is very intelligent indeed as we have discovered in this short time

So given that all of us in the house must be consistent with our own behaviour. What should we do to prevent her from doing it or to teach her not to do it? Wiccaweys looks great thanks. I've stored it under favourites so I can refer back to it. I may well call them for advice like you suggest but I'll wait and see what advice is offered here in the meantime and if i'm still at aloss I'll definately give them a call.

Your input has been very helpful. So once again, thank you.

I second every word QuietTiger has said. Unfortunately many people buy collies thinking that because they are so well behaved on One Man and HIs Dog they must be easy to train when really it's not that simple. Most need an incredible amount of mental stimulation as well as physical exercise - I really wouldn't recommend them to the average family or novice owner.

I would really, really recommend... no, I implore... that you ring Wiccaweys. They have literally thousands of requests to take in dogs each year but can only take a couple of hundred and a huge number of those requests come from people in very similar situations to you. They really know their stuff and have tonnes of experience. They always call people back to give support and advice - as they say, they can't take the thousands in but they can prevent a lot of them from being taken to the vet and put to sleep by giving people good, comprehensive advice and support so that those people can give their dog what he needs and change the whole situation to everyone's satisfaction.

You'll probably get an answerphone but please leave your name and number - they tend to call in the week and save weekends for introducing potential new owners to their rescue dogs. Of course the delay might be longer next week owing to the public holidays.

Out of interest, may I ask where you bought him from and what reason the previous owner gave for getting rid of him? Do you have any alleged or confirmed background on him?

I LOVE collies but was put off getting one because of the herding/nipping issue that I have seen several very experienced collie owning friends having to deal with. None of the cases I have seen have been related to any form of aggression & I think the snarl when food is around sounds like a separate issue.

Where did you buy the dog from? Wiccaways website advises that age 1-2 is a common time for dogs to be brought to them as they are in the equivalent of the teenager phase!

I was warned to run like the wind from any trainer that mentioned the pack theory.. Please listen to Vallhala & contact Wiccaways for specialist collie advice as I think this is a problem they will have seen a lot.

My dd is 10 and quite shrieky & excitable, my friends collie goes into meltdown if dd plays with him so we have to avoid it. In my (limited) experience they are very sensitive dogs,

Hope you can get some good advice asap :)

I loooove wiccaweys I would like to be adopted by them. What Paul and Sarah do not know about collies is not worth knowing. I can hear Paul know saying is he being a bit of a monkey?!

Pack theory and dominance as said above is bollocks. If your trainer is advocating that then I seriously would move to another dog training school however inconvenient - pack theory training can do lasting damage.

You need to keep your collie mentally active - I would disagree that collies need loads of physical activity - they need some but no more than a lab or spaniel but they have to be kept mentally busy.

Basically you need to change your dogs associaition with your son - he sees small, possibly fast, possibly sometimes loud animal that to the collie is just there to play with or herd. The dog needs to be given something else to do around your son

Can you train simple commands:-

Lie down - from a distance

watch me - the dog has to look at you in the eyes

Touch is a fab one for your DS to learn - he puts he hand down and the dog has to touch it with his nose. If the dog comes near he can ask it to touch me and this will prevent the nip. He can then move the hand to different positions so the dog will touch at varies positions.

Do you clicker train? (not necessarily something Wiccaweys will advise but is great for collies.

DS 3 is young so you will have to be very careful but another thing to do maybe is to have him scatter treats on the floor so when the dog comes to him it puts its nose to the ground rather than anywhere near DS. (I have not seen your dog so if he has food issues do not do this!)

This behaviour can be trained out of him - it may take a while but Wiccaweys will help -even if they are a long way from you I thoroughly recommend a visit - be prepared not to want to come home though!

Wow. Thank you all so much for your input.

The reason we chose a Rough Collie was because that's the dog that I had when I was younger. So I have always had a love of Rough Collies and wanted my children to have the same bond with their dog that I had with mine.

We bought her from a reputable breeder who said that they weren't going to show or breed her so they wanted a her to be rehomed in a pet home where she would be part of the family. The breeder asked about the ages of my children and many other questions too and thought that the dog would be suited to us. Also we have her on a months trial and if she doesn't settle then the breeder would be happy to take her back. I don't want to part with her though and am thankful that I have good advice here that I can work with. I know it may be an option to ask her breeder for advice but I am frightened that she'll ask for her back.

I will call wiccawey as you have suggested and I'll get help from them...anything to keep my beautiful dog and to keep my DS safe. Although I'm now reassured that this isn't an aggression issue. But still I do not want DS to be afraid of dogs because of this.

oops minimu I have x posted with you so I'll go read your advice now

When she came to us she didn't repond to her name or any basic commands. I don't know if she was testing us or whether she genuinely didn't know these things. Two weeks with us and she is responding very well to her name (although not great with recall). She knows "Sit" "Lie Down" "down" "paw" "watch me" but does these in her own time and usually only with treats involved. So we are trying with the commands from a distance but we are not there yet. I like the "touch me" command. I will go to work on that one right away whilst I wait on wiccaweys calling me back.

We have been trying to distract her but like i say she doesn't recall very well (only comes when she wants to) and doesn't play with toys. She doesn't know how to play with a ball or chase a frisbee or anything like that, something else we are working on.

I'm so glad I posted here. I wanted to post last week but thought I'd give it her a little longer to settle in.

Ok. I have called wicceways and left a message. I started to teach the "touch me" command. She picked it up almost immediately and was touching DS's hand. I find that she does pick commands up quickly but if I don't have a treat for her in my hand then she is reluctant to do them. So she won't go down on the down command unless there is a treat. Again we are working on this by sometimes giving her loads of praise instead of treats. I think though she is doing great. She has only been with us for two weeks and she's learned loads. On the whole I'm pleased with her...apart from the nipping. I know we'll get there though!

Use treats - Always use treats when training. If you have only had her for a few weeks I would be using treats for a long time yet. I am dead against this idea that dogs should work without treats.

When they are better ar doing things you can ask them to do things with and without treats or ask for a sequence of behaviours and you can treat by food or toys. But do use treats for the time being.

For recall just say her name and then click and treat or just treat do this every time you say her name and she will soon have the best recall in the land!

Ahhh. Just aaah. I could cry. I love dogs. SO glad you''ve had such good advice here.

Celestial - Wiccaweys may take a little while to get back to you this week - Paul is there on his own as Sarah is elsewhere. He will get back to you though as they write down the list of all calls and deal with them in turn.

hmm i am really not sure about these type of dogs as pets.
my friend has a sheltie and this dog has never come over to me despite me calling it etc - very nervy and shy almost to the point of being snappy.
another friend has a border collie and they have really struggled with the dog.it is so focused on herding and wants to go out all the time they just can't exercise her enough.she is quite anti social and disinterested in people.not really much of a pet imo.

Collies, Shelties are fine as long as they are kept busy. My pet hate is anyone thinking any dog just needs a couple of walks a day and that is it. All dogs need stimulation but collies and Shelties and other dogs as well crave it.

They are fine as pets as long as they have the right owners and are stimulated. They are not for the faint hearted or reluctant dog owners you have to be pretty dog obsesse.

This means daily training for life (a new trick to be taught a week is a must for a collie) two hours off lead physical exercise at least each day, an activity that keeps them busy and uses their brain, it may be agility, (although collies love obedience and can be better suited to them) you can work them on sheep (people let you pay to work them on their flocks) working trials, HTM etc etc. This will need to involve several weekly training sessions in class and then continue on this in your own time.

Shineoncrazydiamond is right also to be wary, collies nips/bites can do harm even if it is not an "aggressive" act. They will respond instinctively and must never ever ever be left with children even if they have never reacted to children in the past.

If you are going to own a collie think very very carefully - do you want your life filled with collie for the next 16 years every day and most of the time, do you want to be doing doggy activities in all your spare time, do you want to put your children in kennels when you go on a collie activity holiday - if not they are not the breed for you but if yes you will have a fantastic loyal intelligent dog who you can take anywhere and will do anything for you.

Just as a postscript I don't know if any of you remember the "aggressive" collie that was dumped by my car. He is such an intelligent dog that in the short time that we have had him he can now play with selected other dogs, walk past dogs without reacting and if he hears a dog barking in the distance (which would have made him go crazy) he is now trained to run and bring me his ball no barking no lunging no reaction at all.

So although they can have difficulties from incorrect training they are very smart and can easily and quickly be shown the acceptable behaviour.

do you want to put your children in kennels when you go on a collie activity holiday ...

I've never understood why so many people take collies on as pets. They're lovely but need so much mental stimulation. I adore dogs but know that I don't have the time to give a collie what it needs. When the DCs are all grown and buggered off I will have collies. I haven't quite figured out what to do with DH yet

shineoncrazydiamond - I really doubt that the collie has not shown signs of this behaviour before. In fact I will bet money that he has however I am sure that the owners did not recognise the behaviour.

For example if you have a collie that reacts to butterflies or birds in the garden - that is collie that is reactive to movement and the movement could easily be coming from a child

if you have a collie that barks when it hears a loud noise you have a collie reactive to sound the sound could easily be coming from a child

What really worries me about your poor son's situation (obviously apart from the fact he has been injured and frightened) is the owner lack of understanding of the situation.

The collie will react again - it may be to a child it may be to chase a car but it will react and it has done in the past they have just not recognised it. Has anything been done to follow up your DC incidence - the least that should happen is a dog warden should be told and a good dog warden should be able to educate or advise the owners where to get correct training or how to manage the situation - it must not happen again.

I have DC's and dogs and more than one collie despite the fact that some of my collies are highly trained and biddable I would never ever ever let them play or be around the children if the children are not concentrating 100% on the dogs. I am lucky I have space for separate areas for the dogs to play and the children. I am also lucky that my DC are as dog mad as me and interact with the dogs via training or dog activities.

I agree the OP does concern me as well - a young dog with a young child and not meaning to upset the OP but some very old fashioned ideas on training. However she does seem keen to change and is taking advice - lets hope she is careful in the meantime.

i have a collie x with possibly a lurcher. he is absolutely lovely with kids, our chickens and cats. he is a real softie. he has been difficult to train though and has a tendency to listen to recall command when it suits him. my other dogs will race back to me but on the odd occasion he will decide that he prefers to stroll back to me stopping for a sniff en route. he will always come back but it isnt always instant. considering the amount of training he has had i would expect him to race back to me like the other dogs but he has other ideas

when we rehomed him the rescue said that as we have jrts we would find him easy to train. i would completely disagree with that. our jrts have been easy to train compared to him.

although he is a collie x (and yours is a collie) i thought i would post as wanted to show how great he is with kids. he has been around our foster kids (and had to undergo additional assessments to check his suitability around kids) and kids in the street knock the door and ask to see him. he really is lovely with kids

he came to live us as a foster dog 5years ago and is still here! so he is lovely ................... and did worry that noone else would put up with him if we didnt keep him early years were hard work but worth it

I have no idea why your dog is snapping at your child but I just don't understand why you are keeping her - really sorry because I know this goes against lots of people's views on dogs etc but I wouldn't be taking any chances. You've only had her for two weeks, can you give her back and try with another dog that has been raised with children? I've got a scar on my face from our family pet that snapped at me when I was three. apparently I cornered it and it was just defending itself. so my mum says. obv it was all my fault and neither the dog nor my mum could be blamed that was a snappy little bugger too