Collie keeps snapping at my 3 year old. Please help.

[CelestialstarlightsPassion]

We bought a beautiful 12 month old rough collie who came to live with us just over two weeks ago. She is simply beautiful in every way and we have all very quickly fallen in love with her. The problem is she keeps trying to bite our DS(3).

We had assumed that she is just trying to establish her place in the pack, so with the advice of the dog trainer at her obedience class we are trying to teach her where she is in the pack. We make sure she is always last to leave and enter the house. she is the last to be made a fuss of when we come home from work etc and we give DS her food to put down to her. So far nothing we have done is working. We have tried turning our back on her and ignoring her and using loud noises to distract her when she tries to bite. But I'm now at a loss for what to try next.

Also I am pretty convinced she knows that what she is doing wrong because she waits until she thinks we aren't watching to do it. She'll also try to bite when he isn't watching or when his back is turned too.

Any advice that anyone can give me would be truly appreciated as I really need her to stop doing this. Also if anyone has ideas about why she is doing this would be helpful too (in case it isn't a pecking order pack thing) DH thinks she is just playing but I feel it is more sinister than that. She has snarled at him twice since she arrived but that was around food. Generally when she "goes" for him it is quietly and swiftly.

Thanks for reading

my parents have a collie now and it's grown up with my kids and is the most wonderful dog as a pet for a family. she's fab. but we watch even her carefully and don't leave her alone. have to say though, I do trust her with kids she's so utterly soppy and loves them to bits. I'd not heard before that collies were well known for being dodgy around children? we had the kids first then the collie grew up with them though - think that makes a big difference tbh

We also used to have a border collie - got him as a pup from a rescue centre when my ds was 3.

He had been flown in from the Outer Hebrides and was definately from a long line of working sheepdogs but we never had any problems with his herding instinct.

He was a fantastic dog, loved ds, was easy to train and very friendly towards other dogs and people (was a bit skittish though).

On the other hand my friend had to re-home her collie as she was having the same problems as the op and nothing he did helped.

Suppose its one of those things that it just depends on the individual dog.

Hi all. Erm...I haven't disappeared. I'm just at a bit of a loss really. It looks as though I have some serious thinking to do.

shineoncrazydiamond for your lovely son. This has really made me think. Actually, no, not think...scared me. It has scared me. I had come on here today hoping to get some advice about training and it has led to me seriously consider giving her back.

I don't know what to do now. I'll need to talk this over with DH again and decide on what to do. Hopefully wiccawey will get in touch soon as I think this is fast becoming a more pressing situation than I first thought and it's breaking my heart.

Thank you all for your input

I am starting to get REALLY pissed off with this thread and the collie bashers out there. Collies are not bad & difficult dogs, they are SPECIALIST dogs who are not really suited to a novice dog-owning environment where they are not mentally stimulated and worked.

Whilst I have every sympathy for the fact that the OP has concerns about her collie, she hasn't had the chance for Collie experts (i.e. Wiccaweys, who are specialist collie behaviourists) to get back to her- instead, she's got a pile of people from the internet who are all relating how they would never have collies because they are bad around small children, etc, etc, etc.

Shineoncrazydiamond your experience is dreadful, and I hope your son makes a full recovery but the OP has been given advice to go and speak to collie experts. She is not having her dog assessed over the internet. Several people here, me included, keep a number of collies and are giving advice from our experience. However, we have ALL said go to Wiccaweys for advice. UNTIL the OP has spoken to them and they tell her categorically that the dog needs to go, to get rid of the dog is a complete over reaction.

EVERY dog should be watched around children, regardless of how child safe you think it is. And you should never leave children alone with a dog.

OP, what I suggest, for the time being, is that you find an area that you can cordon off so the dog has a safe place. In our case, we have a child gate so our dogs are confined to the kitchen. One of our dogs, our working cattle dog, is an extreme case and WILL NIP small children, as well as cattle, sheep, etc. We've solved her problem by giving her a crate.

Please don't make ANY decision until Wiccaweys ring you back. Then at least you can make it with expert advice.

CelestialstarlightsPassion WE have not seen the dog or the situation - you have been given information based on other peoples opinion. You do need help you do need to get advice from experienced people on the ground. DO not act on advice without professional backup.

1. A good rescue will have contact with a behaviourist - have you contacted them

2.wiccaweys will help but are very very busy so give them time to return your call

1. contact a behaviourist independently

1. do not act on impulse on the words of people who have not seen the situation but obviously do take sensible precautions as any owner of a new dog would.

Shineoncrazy your situation is horrendous but could so easily have been avoided if the owners where on the ball - it is not an inevitable outcome of having a collie near children. That is why it is so important that those collie owners get advice on their collies body language and behaviour.

The collie was put in a situation that it could not cope with and the owners were complete planks and still are if they are not taking advice.

&Shiney*, I hope that you know that in no way am I belittling what happened to your son. As I said at the time there WAS a reason for the incident - lack of adult supervision and common sense when children were running around an unknown dog in a small, enclosed environment.

Celestial, my kids have had dogs in the home since the day they were born - in DD1's case a first cross Collie and we've had a second collie cross too. Both were perfect. My DDs are now 14 and 15 and are rescue volunteers. They've been so for about 3 years in an environment where we rely on common sense and not strict H&S rules so they interact with literally scores of dogs upon each occasion... and they have never been so much as snapped at in their lives.

You see, for every bad story and warning I can give you fifty good stories to counter them. I'm a rescuer and a hands-on rescue volunteer - I can tell you about F, the ex rescue Collie who's now in a home and doing wonderfully, about J, theh Collie X Springer living with 2 DC and regularly seeing a baby grandaugher, about R and J, two of the most well behaved Collies you could wish to meet... dogs I know personally and which give a completely different picture to the one being painted of the breed above.

But at the end of the day it's all anecdotal and anecdotes do not represent fact or statistics. Or otherwise I presume that you'd all go out and adopt a pair of German Shepherds and a Lab cross because I can give you examples of how mine don't nip or herd my children? Off you all go then, that's GSD Rescue's problems solved. Doesn't work like that though, does it? Yet you'll consider giving up on your dog because of a single example given to you by someone else?

QuietTiger is right and I'm pissed off too. "Collies are not bad & difficult dogs, they are SPECIALIST dogs who are not really suited to a novice dog-owning environment where they are not mentally stimulated and worked." is spot on. I totally support everything she says and urge you too to speak to Wiccaweys before making any decisions. Rescue tend to be very cynical about many of their fellow rescue organisations and, forgive the pun, can be very bitchy about them... but Wiccaweys has virtually unanimous respect from every rescue and rescuer going. I've been involved in rescue myself for many years now and would support and recommend Wiccaweys wholeheartedly.

On another note may I warn you - contrary to your comment up there somewhere your breeder is not a responsible one. A responsible breeder would never have placed an adolescent collie with a novice in the first place, particularly not one with a small child... not because of any danger to the child but because they would know that so very often energetic, demanding dogs end up unwanted by families with young DC, who feel they can't cope or they haven't the time after all, just as is beginning to happen here.

A responsible breeder would also have bred only to improve lines, would have had a home booked for her before they even mated her mother and wouldn't just have decided that they didn't want her when she was 12 months old.

They would also have guaranteed to take her back at any time in her life if it didn't work out, not told you that they'll have her back within a month but after that you're on your own.

This is why I urge people to go to rescue to adopt and not to take on a dog from numpties. A decent rescue would never have given you an adolescent Collie in the first place, would have homechecked you for YOUR benefit as much as the dog's, would have given you an assessed, spayed, vaccinated and chipped dog who was suited to you and been there to take her back if ever you couldn't keep her.

And, if you hit a problem, you'd be getting advice from the rescue right now, who would still be there to advise and support you in 12 years time if you needed it.

This is not an unresolvable problem but because you're a novice owner and you're concerned for your child and have been scared shitless by horror stories it just seems it. It's understandable that you feel overwhelmed and that you can't see the wood for the trees but Wiccaweys will help. Please... give them the chance to do that.

THEN DON'T PUT THE DOG IN A SITUATION WHERE IT CAN BITE UNTIL IT'S BEEN ASSESSED BY EXPERTS!!!

Jajas, out of interest, who, in your opinion, is going to place that Collie in a far more suitable home?

The OP has been advised by both a trainer/behaviouralist on here and by rescuers to supervise, seperate as necessary, consult a hehaviouralist and call Wiccaweys, who are the breed experts. This very much appears to be a herd/nip situation which requires training and not a draconian approach.

And as far as this rescuer is concerned no healthy dog will be or need be killed.

Just to add, majority of Labradors can nip and a lot and hard too. It is not just about Collies. Especially if they come as 12 month old from a breeder. Incidentally, I doubt VERY much that this breeder would have a lot of time socializing/training this particular dog, especially if they have another 15 living with them.

I hate when people come up with breed-specific comments. Yes, they are partly true, but number one of shaping the dog as an individual are its character traits inherited from the parents and its training. That is why it is very important to have this dog properly assessed.

I agree with others, what OP needs now is a proper professional real life advice. If it is decided that rehoming is the way to go, then I am sure they will take it into consideration. For now I would make sure that this child and the dog are left unattended not even for a second.

Should have said "majority of untrained Labradors". I feel that lack of appropriate socialization/training is usually responsible for dogs misbehaving.

How about dont have a dog that tries to bite your child? Im very sorry but your child comes first ALWAYS. If you have to put the dog away, to keep it away from your child - dont have it! There are people out there who will take the dog and there are loads of dogs who need homes.

Im sorry but anyone who puts the welfare of the dog before their own child, really needs to look at priorities. I would not risk it, not for 1 second. If something happens, its to late. You cant say "oh sorry, I didnt know". Can you live with that?

Nuttychic that is why you separate the dog and the child until proper assessment is made.

Wasting your time saying put the child first. They won't really understand what you mean let alone agree with you. That's why I hid the Doghouse, but it seems to have come unhidden.

You have to imagine their lips moving as they try out the words 'put the child first... put the child first' and them saying "no sorry I don't get what you mean. How does that help the dog?"

Nuttychic and just to put your mind at rest, I am not associated with any dog welfare or dog rescue organisation or cause (though I have donated in the past to DogTrust and Oldies Club).

What others have expressed here is the voice of reason. What you suggest (I guess 'immediate re-homing') is a knee-jerk reaction. Why do it if all is needed is proper advice that comes from proper professionals (and not the follower of Cesar Milan). They may be loosing a great friend for their kids and what they teach instead is that lives are disposable if they are inconvenient to you. How do YOU know if this situation is not beyond repair?

Onagar keep pedaling by sweetheart

Nuttychic, ongar, it's not about prioritising, it's about knowing what you're doing (and what you're not doing that you should be doing) and realising that the situation is not at the moment without satisfactory resolution with abit of effort and commitment, about acknowledging that there are people out there who might know WTF they're talking about when it comes to dogs and that they're worth listening to, about taking responsibility for the dog the OP took on, about making good their cock-ups.

Not haviung a clue about a subject yourself, ongar, is no excuse for petty comments about those who do. Or, if it is, let's see how far I get when I tell parents on the SN boards that they should concentrate on their NT, able-bodied children, that they should put them first and that they don't really understand something they live and work with day in, day out, and that their lips are moving as they try to enunciate out your generous, educated, and well-informed advice.

And for the record, I'm not associated with any rescue or welfare association - my work is completely independent although I work aalongside scores of rescues and welfare associations across the country.

Which is why I know what a foolish remark "There are people out there who will take the dog" is.

Who might those people be, Nuttychic? Because I'd love to add some more reputable rescues to my contact list. The vast majority of the hundreds I work with are generally full to the brim. I know... it's what I do.

Sarah at Wiccaweys told me that they had over 2000 requests to take dogs last year... do you honestly think that she could take them all?

And I'll bet Ongar, that to you animals are completely disposable objects who have to follow your way, or the highway. If they don't fit in, they're out.

Meanwhile, Ongar, you expect those people (who according to you can't put the child first) to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong and you want to get rid of your animals. How about people actually take some responsibility for the LIVING, SENTIENT, BEINGS, who they get as a pet on a whim?

Fair play to the OP, she is asking for help so she can make an informed decision about what to do with her collie. WE are trying to give her help so that she doesn't have to discard a family pet that she has bonded with. The advice we have given the OP is good, from people who have EXPERIENCE. So Ongar, fuck off back under your rock with your snide comments and fucking well stay there.

just to clarify - i posted yesterday about my collie cross. whilst i didnt want to underestimate the work involved when he was younger he is absolutely the most wonderful dog. he is being assessed as a pets as therapy dog. i have a ds with SN and he fantastic with him. i also use him to help children on autistic spectrum who are afraid of dogs to overcome their fear.

when we came to live with us he was about 1 and it was hard work. he is now 6 and is an amazing dog

no-one is saying put the child at risk but advising to take sensible precautions until you receive real life help.

which county are you in? maybe we could advise a behaviourist/training near you. although if you wait for wiccaways they will be able to give you more specialist advice