Collie keeps snapping at my 3 year old. Please help.

[CelestialstarlightsPassion]

We bought a beautiful 12 month old rough collie who came to live with us just over two weeks ago. She is simply beautiful in every way and we have all very quickly fallen in love with her. The problem is she keeps trying to bite our DS(3).

We had assumed that she is just trying to establish her place in the pack, so with the advice of the dog trainer at her obedience class we are trying to teach her where she is in the pack. We make sure she is always last to leave and enter the house. she is the last to be made a fuss of when we come home from work etc and we give DS her food to put down to her. So far nothing we have done is working. We have tried turning our back on her and ignoring her and using loud noises to distract her when she tries to bite. But I'm now at a loss for what to try next.

Also I am pretty convinced she knows that what she is doing wrong because she waits until she thinks we aren't watching to do it. She'll also try to bite when he isn't watching or when his back is turned too.

Any advice that anyone can give me would be truly appreciated as I really need her to stop doing this. Also if anyone has ideas about why she is doing this would be helpful too (in case it isn't a pecking order pack thing) DH thinks she is just playing but I feel it is more sinister than that. She has snarled at him twice since she arrived but that was around food. Generally when she "goes" for him it is quietly and swiftly.

Thanks for reading

onagor - if you need any advice on how to hide the doghouse again just ask will be happy to help you

For the record I have 6 cats and 4 dogs so I assure you I am an animal lover myself BUT I can tell you that that the OP is fortunate that the dog has given her warnings - not all dogs do that and he could have just as quickly bitten the child. Sweet dog has given a warning. Can the dog (and people)be trained? Perhaps, but why take the chance and while it is in training? You all ok with it being shoved to one side as it clearly cant be involved in the family 24/7 until it is. There are many homes and many families and NOT ALL DOGS and/or breeds fit in with small children. You all all saying that you should squeeze a square peg in a round hole. While you are deciding (training) the dog is missing out on an opportunity of find a home that does fit him and he could be settling in. This would also put the child at 0 risk of the dog biting him which I assume would be what any responsible parent would do?

"can't keep a dog who is snapping, lunging and snarling at your toddler! Unless you are slightly mad that is!"

No... but you can stop it and train the dog.

I've experienced domestic violence first hand. Perhaps the OP should get rid of her husband, just in case, eh?

Vallhala, if the OP was posting about her husband shoving her but he had not yet actually hit her - you would absolutely suggest she gets rid of her husband! The dog has snapped but not YET bitten full on.

shine I remember your story very well and I wish you and your son very well. However, there is a difference between "a dog who is snapping, lunging and snarling at your toddler" and a dog that is nipping. I am not saying OP's is one or another. What I am saying there is a world of difference between the two and they have a variety of ways of dealing with those.

I also remember that you have a spaniel puppy yourself. Does it ever nip? Young spaniels normally do and there is a number of ways to deal with this unwanted behaviour that do not involve rehoming. OP's dog almost certainly missed on this vital puppy stage and the breeder almost certainly did nothing for it (the dog was supposed to be a show dog I understand but probably did not turn out as they wanted).

The people with proper dog knowledge will assess and advise. We over the internet cannot advise on this particular dog, we can only suggest to take it to the right behaviourist (not Cesar Milan ffs!) and take all the precautions in the meantime. If this dog and the child are separated and/or appropriately supervised nothing will happen.

"While you are deciding (training) the dog is missing out on an opportunity of find a home that does fit him and he could be settling in"

Where are these homes you speak of? How do you suggest the OP facilitates the rehoming that you are advocating?

Yes Nutty.

I would get rid of a shoving husband. Most of MN, it appears, would advocate counselling and/or anger management courses... AKA behavioural training for humans.

As per OP "came to live with us just over two weeks ago"

"Also we have her on a months trial"

That home - the one she recently came from so that the breeder can rehome her where there are no small children.

Nutty how do you know if it is a "warning" or playful juvenile behavior? You just cannot tell this over the internet.

Sorry, I do not want OP bashing and please OP do not take it personally, I know your heart is in the right place and you are just inexperienced, BUT how on EARTH did someone inexperienced with children end up with a 12 month old poorly socialized dog?? On the advise of the breeder?? Terrible. Any literature/serious dog forums will tell you go either for a 8-12 week old puppy or an mature well formed dog, NOT the 12 month old. This is the most difficult stage and although it is not irreparable, it will require some good effort.

Did this breeder offer some after care advice/support to the OP? Really good breeders (and there are those believe me) will be prepared to take their dog back with no questions asked if necessary. Is this one?

Absolutely most of MN would advocate counselling. I do however wonder how many would keep their husbands/feel safe with them while he was undergoing said treatment. From the replies on MN about abusive husbands - not many. They can go on anger courses on their own time and on their own!

Ah, it seems that I've missed the one month trial bit. Sorry

Nutty the husbands parallel is silly, you can lock a dog in a room if necessary. You cannot do it with the husband, c'mon ...

I absolutely agree with you Bemybebe that this is the breeders fault. She clearly had no idea about how the dog would fit in with kids and it appears (from the net) that it is a poorly socialised dog. I do not however think that a 3 year old little girl should be put at risk because of a breeder who clearly didnt have the dog nor the families interest at heart!

Bemybe I was responding to Vallhala's analogy with the husband.

Not "at risk", properly assessed and then decided... why are you against this?

I know, it is just domestic violence is different from a nipping dog, I hope you can see the difference.

This dog may be a wonderful loyal pet in the future. It is very different from "giving a chance" to someone smashing bottles at your head.

ha ha ha. Now I know for sure that you haven't a clue. You haven't even read the thread properly. If you had you'd see why that would be a totally irresponsible, sefish thing to do.

What... send the dog back to the irresponsible, incompetent tosser who bred a dog they decided to dispose of for a nice profit 12 months later and who gave her to a complete novice with a 3 year old child? The tosser who isn't even willing to take the dog back beyond that month?

So that they can sell the dog to yet another novice couple with young kids... only next time the dog might not get as far as going back to her backyard breeder but will instead end up being killed in the vet's or in a pound.

And all because you, who has no bloody idea what the hell she's talknig about in this type of situation, have convinced the OP not to wait for Wiccaweys to call and not to consult a professional, accredited behaviouralist?

Christ, even my 14 year old knows not to do that and the likely end result if the OP did.

I pity some people's kids given the way some consider animals to be dsposable items, I really do.

You're talking bollocks without a scrap of experience or knowledge on the subject.

I have no experience of Collies so I can't really advise the op other than to say advice I have recieved on here from Val, minimu, midori et al regarding my own dogs has always been spot on. You won't go wrong listening to them op.

Wrt rehoming the dog, my own terrier was snappy when we first got him. He snapped at dd2, he bit DH, he snapped at me, he very nearly attacked my Dad full on, but I heard the rucous in time to stop him (my Dad was at fault for trying to Ceaser Millan my dog against my warnings), he wished to eat the cat. I could go on.

I did not want to rehome my 'problems' onto someone else. Why should I? I made a commitment to that dog. That means something to me. Plus I did not want to teach my children that you just give up on your pets when things get tough.

With careful supervision and training of the both dog and children he is now a different dog. I still would not trust him enough to leave him with someone who did not know him well. I will never trust him enough to leave him unsupervised with young children, but I don't trust many dogs enough to do that.

He hasn't snapped at, bitten or growled at anyone for over a year now. We still have a hell of a lot to work on, but we are slowly getting there. He still does not like the cat, but no longer views him as a midnight snack.

I very much doubt the girl who he saved from being attacked last week would have thanked me as much if I had rehomed him.

I agree with you Val. Good breeders will give life-long support.

Nuttychic No-one is advocating seperating the dog from the family on a permanent basis so it can't take part in family life. What has been said, is that the dog needs a safe place. IIRC I actually said was

that you find an area that you can cordon off so the dog has a safe place. In our case, we have a child gate so our dogs are confined to the kitchen. One of our dogs, our working cattle dog, is an extreme case and WILL NIP small children, as well as cattle, sheep, etc. We've solved her problem by giving her a crate.

The advantage to that, is that the OP can separate the dog and the child without worrying until she can have expert advice. It sounds like (to me and the other people on this board who know collies) that the dog is poorly socialised and is exhibiting typical herdy behaviour. That involves nipping.

Small children, in the eyes of collies are sheep that need to be herded. If they don't have a shepherd (or household member) guiding them, they will take charge, because they are BRED to work and control large flocks of sheep. To a collies mind, they have to tidy up. If it's not kids, it'll be the cats, if it's not cats, it'll be the ducks on the pond or the chickens in the garden. We have 8 cats and our collies ALL herd them, if they think they can get away with it. The dogs think it's a game -the cats, not so much .

Some collies, are more "worky" than others. In the case of my girl who nips, she is from a long line of working dogs and her working instinct is so strong, she becomes unpleasant if she's not allowed to work. That's fine for us, because she lives on a working cattle & sheep farm and is allowed to work all day. She is horrendous in the house and so she is either crated or confined to the kitchen for her safety, as much as the kids who come into the house. However, her behaviour COULD be trained out of her by giving her other jobs to stimulate her brain and focusing her mind - we've chosen not to, because it suits us to have a very strong worky collie.

It drives me fucking nuts that people get collies and expect them to be perfect pets because they've seen them on one man and his dog, super, super obedient.

OP, PLEASE wait for Wiccaweys to call you back. At the VERY least, please make up your mind about this having spoken to the EXPERTS. IF you decide not to keep the dog, please PM either me or Val (preferably Val first as she has more contacts than me ) and we WILL help.

"OP, PLEASE wait for Wiccaweys to call you back. At the VERY least, please make up your mind about this having spoken to the EXPERTS. IF you decide not to keep the dog, please PM either me or Val (preferably Val first as she has more contacts than me grin) and we WILL help."

Absolutely.

I - and I'm sure QuietTiger will say much the same - work for the dog, not for a particular rescue, nor for the owner, nor the prospective owner nor for myself.