Collie keeps snapping at my 3 year old. Please help.

[CelestialstarlightsPassion]

We bought a beautiful 12 month old rough collie who came to live with us just over two weeks ago. She is simply beautiful in every way and we have all very quickly fallen in love with her. The problem is she keeps trying to bite our DS(3).

We had assumed that she is just trying to establish her place in the pack, so with the advice of the dog trainer at her obedience class we are trying to teach her where she is in the pack. We make sure she is always last to leave and enter the house. she is the last to be made a fuss of when we come home from work etc and we give DS her food to put down to her. So far nothing we have done is working. We have tried turning our back on her and ignoring her and using loud noises to distract her when she tries to bite. But I'm now at a loss for what to try next.

Also I am pretty convinced she knows that what she is doing wrong because she waits until she thinks we aren't watching to do it. She'll also try to bite when he isn't watching or when his back is turned too.

Any advice that anyone can give me would be truly appreciated as I really need her to stop doing this. Also if anyone has ideas about why she is doing this would be helpful too (in case it isn't a pecking order pack thing) DH thinks she is just playing but I feel it is more sinister than that. She has snarled at him twice since she arrived but that was around food. Generally when she "goes" for him it is quietly and swiftly.

Thanks for reading

shineoncrazydiamond Brilliant, you have a clever little doggy and you are obviously doing the right thing by him. [grim] A friend of mine had hers nipping for a month or so, sometimes rather hard, but it also all went away without any problem.

[grim]?? grin

Our 2 older collies do not like children. Why should they? We sought professional help just before our 2nd child was born because we didn't want to give up the dogs. 6 years later they are still with us and still don't especially like children, unless the children are slaves to ball throwing.

The dds enjoy the dogs, although I don't leave them together. There is a lot of respect between the girls and the dogs, and it has the added benefit for the children of learning that not all dogs like small people.

The nipping may be relatively simple to sort out. That you are constantly on guard will have consequences. That your 3 yo may be anticipating a nip may also have consequences. It does sound a bit as though the relationship between the humans in the house and the dog isn't quite right.

I am very aware of how little I understand of what it means to be a dog, and there are new ideas sprouting up all the time. We are very good at anthropomorphising, making assumptions that other animals think like we do.

I'm sure you can and will sort this problem out. One of the many joys of bringing another species into our homes!

www.apdt.co.uk/ www.care-uk.com/ www.apbc.org.uk/apbc/memberlist

These are all places where you might find suitable help.

If there is a TV dog trainer you like, you can look them up too. They are dog trainers, after all! Keep trying.

I have been at my wit's end with pup running off. He is a super dog, but his running off is not at all super, so I have called in the big guns, hopefully before a real one shoots him. So many dog owners know how it is to feel bloody stuck with an unwanted behaviour. It's horrible.

If you are determined to keep the dog, you will find a way to sort this thing out.

Another irrelevant analogy here ...I grew up with (amongst others) collies, collie crosses and JRTs (snappy little buggers, right?) Wrong! None of these dogs ever nipped, not ever.
They weren't working dogs but they were busy (we had a lot of land), well trained and stimulated. One collie in particular was the sweetest creature I've ever met. He was a stray that adopted us, his history was irrelevant.

Whippets? The often recommended gentle breed for a family (generally very true!) ....historically, they were known as 'Snap dogs', because of their penchant and ability to 'snap' and fast.

Mind boggling!

We currently have an adopted 5 month old sprocker. Cute, fun, intelligent, energetic (current!) nipper but he hasn't got a malicious bone in his body

If you can find a way to work through this safely with your dog Celestial, do!

Shiney, just as you realise that your puppy 'nipping' was just puppy mouthing and completely normal for a puppy until they are trained otherwise, so are some people recognising that nipping can be perfectly normal behaviour for some collies until trained otherwise. No difference IMO, a puppy is perfectly able to do damage by mouthing, just as an adult collie can.

One thing that some people often fail to understand is that being aware of dog behaviour, having an idea of how to deal with certain behaviour and being willing to do so does not mean people are putting dogs before children. What it means is they believe there is a way of solving the problem whilst keeping both the DC and the dog safe. I have said before and I'll say it again, I have a dog here who previously was at risk of biting someone. I also have DC. However, my DC, nor anyone else were at risk of being bitten, because of how the dog was/is managed.

I think the OP is right to seek professional help, good help. It seems they have had the best intentions and done that immediately, but sadly the trainer is lacking and that probably hasn't helped.

I do think that maybe the breeder here has been given a hard time too. I personally (as a breeder) wouldn't agree to a months trial of a dog, although I would make it clear that I would take the dog back at any time in the future and in fact, expect that to happen if the new owner cannot keep the dog, but I don't get the impression that the months trial means the breeder won't be interested after that. The OP herself has said she hasn't contacted the breeder as she is worried they may take it back, not because they don't feel the breeder would help. There are also valid reasons as to why a breeder may have to rehome a 12 month old dog. It may have been returned to them and they are not in a position to keep it, or they may have grown it on for the ring and it has turned out not to be good enough to show or breed from. Not something I would do myself, but I do understand why some breeders so this and provided the new home is a good one and the breeder offers lifelong support, I don't see the problem with it. Of course, the dog's behaviour and the fact it has been rehomed to a family with a young child does not seem ideal. I am not a collie expert (although I am not sure fi some people have missed the fact this is a rough collie, likely show bred and now a border or working collie) but I do know myself that it is possible for dogs to exhibit certain behaviours in an inexperienced household they simply don't when in a more experienced one, maybe for as simple a reason as the atmoshphere. I knwo my own dogs are super obedient, but they do know when people are a 'pushover'.

I think waiting to speak to Wiccaweys is good advice, but I would also urge you phone the breeder too and discuss the behaviour with them. They should be experts in the breed and may well be able to help you in the meantime. I wouldn't be too quick to write them off and they should be glad you have contacted them and commited to finding a solution to the problem, whatever that may be.

Our Lab was terrible for nipping when we first got him he is fine now, but my mums CKCS (who is well trained and socialised) does not like young children, he finds them too much and gets anxious so we seperate him and he DC. The breed is not important.

I reccommend you follow the advice op and get him assessed by one of the professional organisations mentioned and keep him and your DS seperate till then. I speak as a victim of a dog mauling whn I was 8. Please dont rehome him because of a few posts on a internet get him properly assesed and see if his behaviour can be resolved first.

Midori1999 - you make a good point that the OP's dog is a show bred Rough Collie and not a working sheepdog or a Border Collie, but if you look at the history, the breed was bred for the same thing which is a Herding/Pastoral dog. Therefore, it will exhibit general collie traits, in the same way a springer, cavalier, cumberland or a cocker spaniel will exhibit spaniel traits.

QuietTiger, I don't disagree with you at all and as I said, I am not a collie expert, but IME, show bred dogs, although they should still be fit for purpose are often better suited to family homes, whatever sort of background the breed has, than working strain dogs, purely because on the whole they do tend to be calmer and less driven, although obviously it's still desirable that they show the correct breed traits. Hopefully in the case of the OP this will make things easier.

Have you phoned the breeder to find out if the dog was like this with them/anyone ?

Ah, I understand where you're coming from now, Midori1999. That's a very valid point, actually.

I don't like the collie bashing on this thread . We have a sheltie and he is wonderful. He's 9 years old. We got him when DD1 was 6 and DD2 was 3. He has been the most gentle, loyal companion you could possibly imagine and has been great to train as he is so bright (certainly very easy compared to our JRT/spaniel x who is a real handful character).

He did always herd the children when they were small, but we worked hard with him to put this to good use. We were lucky, though, in that he just rounded up by nudging and barking. In relation to the above debate, he was show bred, so this may have helped.

We trained him to the point that we could say "fetch DD1" or "fetch DD2" or "fetch DH" and he would go up to them and nudge/ bark them in the right direction. We gradually worked with him to wait with us until we told him to get them, with the "escapee" gradually further and further away as he got better at it. We worked on it during every walk and he eventually got brilliant at it. Because we taught him only to round up on our command, he learnt not to do it around the house. DD1 once hurt herself down the lane climbing a tree and he ran all the way home to alert and fetch DH because she told him to. I always felt the girls were so safe with him because he was trained to keep them together and protect them, and he has never, in all their childhood, hurt them in any way.

He was and is very treat motivated and we still treat very regularly for the behaviours we want, even though he's now quite grown up!

The point is, we always kept him gainfully employed particularly when he was young. We decided on his tasks so he didn't get too much time to choose for himself! Since being older he has liked a quieter life and is so calm you wouldn't believe. He still likes us all together, though!

I think collies and shelties are wonderful, utterly devoted and loyal. I think with good training advice you will end up with the most tremendously loyal dog who will look out for you all and would go to the ends of the earth for you. I do hope it turns out well for you; I think it will be worth the effort you have to put in.

Is there collie bashing on this thread? Most comments seem to be that they are working dogs who need a high level of input and do not suit all families, which seems to me to be quite a reasonable view.

Hopefully OP will get some good advice from Wiccaways & this nipping problem can be swiftly sorted out

Sometimes my mind boggle, as I wonder how it is possible to be the owner of both dogs and children, and keep everyone happy and safe, and first priority.

Must be such a challenge.

Firstly, please let me apologise. I'm sorry that I seem to have opened up such a can of worms which of course was never my intention. I startred this thread only to ask for some help and not to cause any fighting or upset .

I agree that yes I am a novice owner but please be under no illusion. I am in no way irresponsible and we as a family did not take on the responsibility of rehoming a dog lightly. Nor was it a snap decision to do so.

Of course the welfare of my son is paramount and as such we are being super vigilant. I think the child gate idea is great and I'll get on to that asap. I had toyed with the idea of using a crate and this may be an option too. I have called wiccaweys and hope they will be able to help although I don't live anywhere near them. But I shall also be contacting a dog behaviourist to assess the situation and to help me with training her. I have recieved wonderful advice on here and I can't thank you enough. Last night I started to get really emotional about it all (as you could probably tell from my post) but it was just emotions. We will be putting all necessary action into place to ensure the safety and happiness of both our amazing son and our beautiful dog. If we are told by a behavourist that there is something to worry about then the situation may then change but I don't really see that happening. I really believe that this is something we can change. Even then we will never be complacent as I think should be the case with all families who have children and dogs.

Once again. Thank you for all of your input. Thank you for taking the time to reply and give advice regardless of viewpoint. And please accept my apologies for creating such an emotive discussion.

OP, you have no need to apologise.. Direction of the thread is beyond any mortals your control [bugrin]

Sounds like you are being sensible, hope you are not getting too stressed, dogs & children both have the potential to give you grey hair! Here, have a

which part of uk are you in? someone may be able to recommend a good behaviourist.

good luck i love my collie cross

I'm glad your taking advice from the posters here and giving your dog the best chance. If Collies are as smart as people say they are it will definitely be something you can solve

With my dog I taught him to stay with me at all times rather than using gates to separate him from us. I tied a bag of treats to my belt loop every morning and would randomly give him small tasks i.e sit, down, stay etc and then treat him. He soon learnt the best place to be was by my side, just incase I gave him something tasty. He could smell the food and wanted to stay near me right from the off.

I also taught dd2 not to approach him and always call him to her and only if me or Dh were there.

I don't need to keep him with me always now, but I still make sure I know where he is and where the children are although there is now a mutual respect between children and dog and they tend to give each other the space they need. He normally keeps an eye on me throughout the day anyway. He is never sure when I'll next go to the fridge

Although he is not a Collie, so was probably easier to train the change in him is enormous. Just a year ago no-one would dare ask him to go to bed incase he bit them. Now he sees us getting ready and takes himself off up to his own bed, where he stays until I get up.

I recall a school friend of mine had a collie as a pet, smashing dog but an incorrigible herder, we were strictly advised on visiting her house to be still and quiet and not wave our hands about as the dog got a bit excitable. It used to lurk and watch every move we made! The family were used to being 'herded' when walking it!
I have a rescue dog who I think is great with kids and my 4 yd old DD in particular, but I would never leave them unsupervised. A dog may be 'bombproof', but you can never account for children, or for the possible effects of your dog being unwell for example.
Collies are great dogs, but in my limited experience do need to be with owners who can give them the right environment.

Ooh lovely. Thanks for the herladyship. Exactly what is needed. Everyone including dog have gone to bed so I'm enjoying the peacefulness and calmness of my usually noisy home. This is bliss

Chicken I'm in Scotland so if anyone is able to recommend a behaviourist in the strathclyde/clydesdale area I'd be delighted. I've looked a few up but it is always good to have recommendations or go on word of mouth.

No need to apologise at all, Celestial, we're the arguing ones, not you! :)

I think that you have what it takes and will make a success of this, I really do, providing, as you say, that professional experienced advice does not conclude that there is something seriously amiss that would make that impossible for you.

And, FWIW, i don't think YOU are irresponsible... I think that the breeder is and was but the fault is not yours.

Re the crate - excellent idea, a place of peace and quiet all of her own for pooch but please remember two golden rules... NEVER use it as a place of punishment or she will associate it with bad things and teach EVERYONE - DH, DC, visitors, the lot - NEVER to disturb a dog when in their crate.

Please also bear with Wiccaweys - this long holiday weekend and then another next week means a busy time and a short "phone call replying" week - they WILL call back but of course if you fear that your call has been accidentally overlooked please don't feel scared to call again in a few days.

Another thought - you may like to contact Val at Valgrays, another excellent collie rescuer who will gladly advise you I'm sure. www.valgraysbcrescue.org.uk/contactusownerforum.htm If all else fails, pm me as I can call her for you although her number isn't publicly available.

Good luck and please keep us informed.

We recently adopted a dog (not a collie) of similar age and my youngest ds is also 3. Neither ds is left with the dog, ever and the crate is really great for that. The dog seems to really love his. Otherwise, we do have certain parts of the house that the dog is simply not allowed into (so far), which has helped to allow the ds's space where they know the dog is not there. Otherwise, the dog has learnt already that he is not to enter a room the ds's are in without me. Thankfully (so far) he has listened and responded to this.

PS Valgrays is like Wiccaweys a Border Collie rescuer but will be able to advise on your Rough girl too.

Don't worry about it kicking off - it seems to do it regularly here

I am glad you are feeling positive and with a few sensible precautions you can have a relaxed life.

I would thoroughly recommend a crate - most dogs love them if introduced correctly and the dogs can then chill out totally and are generally calmer around the house.

As a behaviourist I have seen many dogs with "issues" that have totally changed their behaviour with a correct training so it can easily be done.

I love all dogs but do have to admit to having a very soft spot for collies their intelligence and ability to pick up your mood is amazing and when they trust you they will do anything for you and become a constant loyal loving companion.

Good Luck