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Original poster

Dispatches programme about children learning maths

222 replies

ItNeverRainsBut · 16/02/2010 08:10

Anyone watch this Dispatches programme on Channel 4 last night?
The Kids Don't Count

Quite shocking that when they gave the teachers the test aimed at 11-year-olds, they scored and average 45%!

OP posts:

ImSoNotTelling · 20/02/2010 15:37

I suppose there must be lots of other stuff that they do instead.

wastwinsetandpearls · 20/02/2010 16:55

I can remember adding fractions in the first year of juniors. I am amazed that children do not do it now until secondary.

DD is adamant that she is adding fractions at school.

mankyscotslass · 21/02/2010 10:26

Ds is in year 3 and they have definitely started fractions, including the concept of adding them, already.

Strix · 21/02/2010 10:30

I have wathched the programem now. It interesting that at the end the chidren could add 1/2 and 1/4 but couldn't really explain what they did to get the answer. SO I wonder if it was memorised if if they really understood the math. Not one of them mentioned needing a common denominator and therefore converting 1/2 to 2/4 so they could add the 1 and the 2 to get 3/4.

I think I could teach this concept to my 6 (almost 7) year old in about an hour.

This programme has reavealed my worst nightmare in the school system. It is simply not good enough. It makes me very sad that I cannot just yank my kids out of the state system and sign up for private school. But, I can't so I'll be teaching a lot of maths myself and relying upon Kumon so my kids can compete on international levels when they are adults.

Feenie · 21/02/2010 10:44

"Ds is in year 3 and they have definitely started fractions, including the concept of adding them, already."

The concept of half starts at 1a - in Y1 for most children.

I might use an adding question to check understanding, perhaps at the start/end of a lesson, as I am sure lots of teachers would- maybe this is why I was surprised to discover adding fractions isn't actually on the curriculum for 11 year olds. But it wouldn't be an explicitly taught skill in KS2.

juuule · 21/02/2010 10:44

"Why, if it isn't on the curriculum?"

This comment really bothers me.
Seems to suggest that if it's not on the curriculum - why bother. Which makes me very uneasy for some reason.

Feenie · 21/02/2010 10:51

I know what you mean, but that's a dangerous concept; that is, having an imagined 'list' of things that primary school teachers MUST be able to do - even though they don't have to have the ability to actually teach it because it isn't on the curriculum until secondary school - where would it end?

TulipsInTheRain · 21/02/2010 10:53

I used to joke that i have the maths equivalant of dyslexia

I simply don't 'get' sums.... i can understand the theory but find it very difficult to apply that to an actual problem.

I was okish up until my junior certificate (with much help from an excellant grinds teacher who had a knack for helping me 'see' the problems) but leaving cert leval went over my head completely. I was doing honours leval and was under pressure from the school to do pass but having looked at the pass leval books knew i'd fail them too so figured it was better to fail the higher leval than the pass leval

I attempted to redo leaving cert maths a few years later but dropped out after a few classes as i was hitting the same brick wall.

I'm now studying an OU science course which has quite alot of maths and although it's giving me a nervous breakdown at times i seem to be doing ok... have had 'good maths skills' comments in my assesments which made me laugh as i didn't have a clue what i was doing for the most part!

I'm dreading having to help the kids with maths homework in a few years though as it's often the simple stuff like fractions that confounds me

Strix · 21/02/2010 10:55

I agree, Juuule. Should teacher not be able to field questions from a child who maybe goes a step beyond the expectations of the national curriculum?

There was a bit in the program about how you only needed a C in your GCSE to become a teacher. And you could get a C by getting only half the questions right. Surely this standard is too low.

(I'm not sure if I got the details of the above right... maybe it was A level, not GCSE. Feel free to correct me if I got this wrong. But the point is teachers apparently don't really need to know the material and that is not a good thing for our children.

Feenie · 21/02/2010 11:02

"Seems to suggest that if it's not on the curriculum - why bother"

Not at all a case of 'why bother' - more a case of 'it's incredibly hard to fit everything that is already on the curriculum in AND to have the time to teach it so that children have a comfortable degree of understanding so that they are able to build upon it and better understand the next concept.

Do you then expect primary teachers to examine the secondary curriculum at level 7 aswell, decide 'well that should be on our curriculum too', and teach it accordingly? As I say, where would that end?!

Feenie · 21/02/2010 11:08

"Should teacher not be able to field questions from a child who maybe goes a step beyond the expectations of the national curriculum?"

I agree, Stix, they should. And I think there is merit in your argument of higher qualification standards for teachers - a 'C' at GCSE IS too low.

But that's a different discussion to the one Dispatches raised - they chose to include this question as one typically aimed at 11 year olds under the NC - and it most certainly is not.

Oquioqui · 21/02/2010 17:12

It's not acceptable IMO. There should be a big drive to get all teachers educated to the level they need to teach maths.

NoahAndTheWhale · 22/02/2010 14:43

Coming to this thread rather late but I can't believe that dividing fractions is a level 7 attaintment.

I was (and am) vey good at maths (probably helps having maths teachers as parents) and the scheme we used at school was Mathematics for Schools (I think) which had a series of books that you went through. I can't remember any whole class teaching - you just went through the books. It would have been either year 5 or year 6 when I was dividing fractions - I probably didn't quite understand at first, but it then made sense.

I really can't see that I was especially amazing but maybe for me having mathematical ability was just one of those things.

I was briefly a primary school teacher but was basically useless. Good thing for schools that I stopped.

ImSoNotTelling · 22/02/2010 20:06

EPISODE 2 ON RIGHT NOW!

Kirkers · 23/02/2010 06:43

I find the BBC schools website very good. Could you look at the maths bitesize bit and then ask for an explanation if you don't understand?

I think that maths is difficult if you are either scared of it or think you can't do it. Or you have been told you can't do it.

Strix · 23/02/2010 09:40

Yes, Kirkers, but why do people think they can't do it? Avoidance is a very good way to reinforce a fear. If you are afraid of math, all the more reason to do some and conquer that fear.

Journey · 23/02/2010 10:49

If a primary school teacher is unable to do primary school maths they should be sacked. In any other profession this is what would happen. If you're not competent at your job you should be dismissed. It is a national disgrace that this does not happen.

MathsMadMummy · 23/02/2010 11:11

I watched part 2 last night, didn't find it particularly informative compared to part 1 though. I was pleased most kids made an improvement though! But I can't help wondering if they'll fall behind again when they get to yr7, I somehow doubt they'll be doing the cup method there. It'd be good if they had an update in a few years to show how they do compared to kids in the academy who didn't have the special teaching.

I loved that method of teaching negative numbers though! I'm making a note of it for my future (hopefully teaching) career.

ZephirineDrouhin · 23/02/2010 11:31

Damn, I missed it. What was the method of teaching negative numbers?

MathsMadMummy · 23/02/2010 11:42

you can watch it online (4 on demand) but the method was using earth on the school field.

the flat field is zero. each small pile of earth on top count as 1. each hole dug into the earth is -1.

they learnt to add them as you fill in the negative numbers (holes) with the positive numbers (earth piles) and just count the holes or piles you have left IYSWIM.

So -8 plus 6:

dig 8 small holes and create 6 piles of earth. to add them you put the earth in the holes until you run out, and in this case you have 2 holes left over - so -8 plus 6 is -2.

quite a good learning method i think, there's not enough kinaesthetic (sp?) learning at school IMHO.

Strix · 23/02/2010 12:14

Another good place to teach the negative concept is in a lift where there are floors (i.e. parking) below the ground floor.

yummyyummyyummy · 25/02/2010 16:03

To be fair the test was using concepts which an 11 yr old should know , that doesn't mean it is the same level.
But still, I have just done the test and got full marks and I certainly don't think of myself as being particularly good at maths.The standard was way below o level.
I am utterly horrified that primary teachers scored so low on this easy test.

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