Dispatches programme about children learning maths

[ItNeverRainsBut]

Anyone watch this Dispatches programme on Channel 4 last night?
The Kids Don't Count

Quite shocking that when they gave the teachers the test aimed at 11-year-olds, they scored and average 45%!

Yes.

ImSoNotTelling, I think you are right that you were taught it but not explicitly in terms of an acronym. You were probably taught as somebody on the TV show thread mentioned

"I did my A level in 1983, and I'm pretty sure we weren't taught BODMAS/BIDMAS as an acronym, but we were taught the following IIRC...

1. Work from the inside out (wrt brackets).
2. Consider each set of brackets separately.
3. Expand all the brackets. If brackets have indices, expand these first.
4. Expand the powers and roots (doesn't matter which first).
5. Perform the division and multiplication (doesn't matter which first).
6. Perform the addition and subtraction (doesn't matter which first)."

Also brackets were probably used everywhere so it was not emphasized when you did maths.

I think that good primary teaching will on purpose avoid ambiguous questiosn like 5 + 3 x 0
so it shouldn't be a problem unless the teacher doesn't understand the implications and makes the mistake of introducing ambiguous examples

I only read the first page of that link It was v interesting though.

And YES to recognising the rules you have printed above! Literally "in so many words" for the first 3 points... The last 3 I think I have internalised as i don't "remember" them but I use them. HOORAY I am not mad after all!!!

I am not as old as the person on the thread BUT I wonder if I was taught the "old fashioned way" due to private school. Yes it all makes sense now!

(In a dancing style not a small green garnish style )

"Also brackets were probably used everywhere so it was not emphasized when you did maths."

Yes I am sure this is true and that BIDMAS has become incredibly important due to computers. As computers don't like things like brackets so you really need other conventions. So yes if the children are explicitly familiar with this then it gives them a head start with programing and excel - as even if the order of precedence is different they are familar with the concept.

I am so pleased that I have learnt this. Otherwise you would have spotted me in about 4 years time making a right arse out of myself at DDs school, demanding brackets and citing Physics degrees

yes this saves your DD from having to apologise for her crazy mum

I think we were taught Bidmas in the first year of secondary school but in everyday working used brackets so the idea never really sunk in. Thinking about it - I used to use "3.2" to isolate a multiplication. I'd imagine a computer would prefer 3*2. A "x" for multiplication is too easily confused with the variable x.

This book is useful - Explained for Primary Teachers www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Explained-Primary-Teachers-Haylock/dp/1412911834. I did maths A level and as part of my degree, so I'm OK at it myself, but this book explains lots about why some things are taught the way they are these days (it also references research), as well as summarising and re-explaining all the basics of primary maths. Really useful for parents.

imsonottelling - sounds like we've got a very similar educational background! I'd definitely recommend that book to you - I was both rusty on basics I hadn't had to think about (just use) for years, and doubtful about all these new methods I'd heard people whinging about. That book was good as a refresher and for explaining the methods.

compuers use * for multiplication yes that's right.

It's funny how "x" goes to "." goes to nothing at all as you move on isn't it. These conventions (languages) do change as you progress and it is interesting to note that different computer programs use different BIDMAS type rules - so depending on what you are doing BIDMAS may not be definitive IYSWIM.

The wiki entry talks about teh ocnventions used in programing languages.

I have saved that book recommendation tablemat - I am dreading my DD starting school and me being foxed by everything (pushy? moi??)

OMG Anyone who can't score 100& on that test should not be qualified to teach in schools.

I am horrified.

And if anyone tells my child that 6 + 4 x 0 = 0 I'll have a fit.

I just did the test. I got 1 out of 14. The one I got right was the first one. I only got this right because I had seen the answer on this thread.

But, are you employed to teach the subject to children?

I can of course understand that not everyone is or even aspires to be a mathematician. But, surely someont teaching future mathematicians, engineers, bankers, accountants, etc. out to be able ace a test designed for 11 year olds.

This is truely shocking. I haven't watched this episode yet, but will do as soon as I can get the silly connection to 4oD to work.

It isn't designed for 11 year olds. Adding fractions, for example, comes under the criteria for level 8, I believe.

And whilst I have taught several gifted mathematicians to a Level 6 standard, Level 8 would be out of a primary teachers experience.

For the record, I can add fractions, have a Pure Maths and Stats A level, and scored 14/14 in the online test.

Link to an interesting TES thread on the Dispatches program here

teacher's

I don't think concerns about maths teaching at primary schools should be seen as teacher bashing at all. If there are primary school teachers who do not have the training to enable them to teach maths effectively, the answer is surely to improve this aspect of teacher training. This is the message that I got from the programme, and certainly not that teachers are all idle/incompetent etc etc

I can't believe that adding fractions is a level 8 skill, unless I have misunderstood you. My dd can add fractions with ease and she is 8.

I agree Zephirine.

I didn't see the programme, but giving a sample of just 155 teachers a test which is purports to be designed for a typical 11 year old, and clearly isn't, sounds like DM type journalism to me.

Just checked APP, and adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing fractions is level 7. Should we ever come across a level 7 pupil at primary, I imagine we would seek access to specialist tuition, using links with the university - it would be that out of the ordinary.

That can't be all fractions though can it. My dd is good at maths but is not a prodigy and is adding fractions at school and at home.

I am only familar with the Maths curriculum up to level 6, twinset, and they don't appear there. The secondary APP document has them appearing at level 7 - here.

Does she really though, twinset? My first reaction was 'of course we teach this', but thinking about it, we actually don't. And since it isn't on the curriculum until level 7, we have no reason to.

A typical 11 year old (level 4) would be taught to convert mixed numbers to improper fractions and vice versa, recognise approx proportions of a whole and use simple fractions to describe them and relate fractions to division and their decimal representation.

An able level 5 11 year old would be taught to recognise the decimal equivalents of a fraction where the decimal is a recurring fraction, reduce a fraction to its simplest form using cancelling, recognise equivalent fractions, decimals and percentages and use their knowledge of equivalence to compare fractions with different denominators.

Level 6 deals with adding and subtracting fractions with a common denominator only.

I have just checked with dp who does a lot of maths with dd and also goes into her maths classes and they add simple fractions in class and she can do more complex ones at home.

Surely you want a primary school teacher to be able to add fractions.

Why, if it isn't on the curriculum?

Why say a test is aimed at a typical 11 year old, when it isn't - unless you want to be less than honest and provoke this type of reaction?

I can add fractions, and I would hazard a guess that most of my coleagues could too - we only know that 55% of this sample of 155 teachers can't. And not only that, actually - we don't know if it was that question they struggled with.

Colleagues - bloody hell, I cannot type today.

I am surprised that adding etc fractions does not come up until secondary school TBH.