Dispatches programme about children learning maths

[ItNeverRainsBut]

Anyone watch this Dispatches programme on Channel 4 last night?
The Kids Don't Count

Quite shocking that when they gave the teachers the test aimed at 11-year-olds, they scored and average 45%!

Annoyed I didn't catch the programme - I would have been interested in that.

Just as an aside, this book looks good- Maths for Mums and Dads. So often the maths my dc bring home is done so differently to when I was at school.

But why should you have to do it SEA? My parents didn't teach me to read, write, add, subtract, times tables, fractions etc etc, school did. Why has that changed?

I think it's a shame they don't teach two different - but related - subjects: maths and arithmetic.

I don't need to know how to divide fractions, solve algebra or work out the angles in a triangle much in my daily life but I do need to be able to check my change, divide a restaurant bill and work out what three weeks's pocket money for the DCs is extremely regularly.

Many school leavers can't do simple everyday sums because enough time was not spent teaching them because the maths curriculum covers all sorts of non-everyday stuff.

i know flashharriet, i know lots of people who send their children to kumon type places, but it's really quite alot to spend!

I got a B (I think) in GCSE maths - and I could not remember now how to divide fractions, managed to work it out but in a completely different way to the examples given in this thread. I remember being taught to divide whole numbers (ie 8 divided by 2) by imagining 8 sweets being divided between 2 children, so the answer is 4 as they have 4 each.

1/2 divided by 1/4 - so a half is what a quarter of a person has, so a whole person has 2 as that is 1/2 x 4 - which is invert and multiply, but I wouldn't have got that.

Actually the way we were taught at school was something like get the top numbers the same and then just use the bottom numbers to calulate it - which still gives 2, but I'm not sure it works in another example.

I am 21 - so similar to you Muffin - and I guess I am lucky that I am naturally good at maths - but I also found that grammar was never taught and I really struggle with it, beyond the basics. Though I appeared to know more than some of my classmates at GCSE level - I was in the top set for English and I remember in the revision period for GCSEs the teacher suddenly deciding to go over definitions of noun, verb, adjective etc. The worst thing is that most of the class was stumped by this and couldn't remember it at all - at 16.

As someone who is a mathematical brain type person I find this so sad.

Not least because people like me - good and intuitive understanding of maths (to a point ) but not as good at or interested in english - are being shortchanged as they won't be able to do and enjoy what they are naturally good at, and will be left with the emphasis on something that they don't care for so much.

I loved maths at primary school. It was my favourite subject. If the teachers don't understand or like maths themselves, they will not only teach it badly, but their lack of enthusiasm for the subject will be communicated to the pupils.

When I did my O Grades many moons ago, I did do a seperate O Grades in arithmetic and Maths.

I had no confidence and mum got me a tutor, but eventually I passed them, got a 2 in Arithmetic and a 3 in Maths.

Now Dh does the childrens maths homework with them as I am so unsure.

Luckily so far the children seem to like numbers, they must take after their dad.

I think I will order that book that was recommended further up.

I was really dismayed by this programme too.

One thing I wondered was whether, if a school's Year 6 Maths sats are reasonably good, this would indicate that the Maths teaching in that school is sorted, or whether it is possible that they have just taught the children how to answer sats type questions, and have not necessarily covered all the basics?

I've finally finished watching this on 4od ad I think the programme really summed up (no pun intended) how my maths education was.

Ds is mostly taught maths by a computer! I get the impression little whole class teaching happens (maybe the ability is too wide?), some is done in small groups. The focus is very much on literacy and mini projects.

Dh went to an evening about how maths is taught at ds' school and parents were asking questions about 'how to' - the teacher presenting didn't understand what parents were asking and dh explained (and pointed out 3 errors in the presentation) Dh is very good at maths so our dcs are fortunate but what about the rest?

i took my ds to a tutor for a while, she taught him using the internet not what i was after

this is an article about learning difficulties and maths but the concept applies to general maths difficulties as well.

I like this bit
'These ... deficits combine to make a powerful obstacle to learning maths. Unfortunately it is hard to find comments from policy makers that acknowledge this fact. Instead they tend to say ?more mental arithmetic? and ?children will learn the times table facts at an earlier age?. And then, to make sure learning really is a problem there is within the culture of arithmetic the expectation that it has to be done quickly.'

Very relevant quote from the the brilliant novel "Engleby":

"Ah, the treason of the clerks - the 1970s schoolteachers who decided, for some perverse political reason, to withhold knowledge from our schoolchildren. The first generation thus deprived are now themselves the teachers, so it's less treasonous for them: they don't have the knowledge to hold back. We were bound to see the results of this anti-teaching before too long."

God it must be so demoralising for the teachers themselves if they can't understand the things they are supposed to be teaching let alone the disastrous effects on the children.

my primary school taiught maths to a very high level (so much so i was sat at secndary learning eff all until the end of GCSE's..)

we had tests every day. homework every day and a maths lesson every day...the teachers knew their stuff, we were setted so they cold teach up and keep us all motiated. great school.

so think testing is in itself damaging? no, but poor teaching is, a lack of focus on it is.

Sat are just a different test - when i was little we had richmond tests, then something else in a different area, then something else again in secondary school - never a worry because prior to GCSEs they meant nothing for us.

Private schools have testing of their own kind.

the problem with the SATS is that they narrow the focus of the curriculum and teachers are under pressure to move on too quickly rather than revisiting and consolidating areas of difficulty

You're right abot the tests we did, Edgar; but SATs are not "just another test". They are a HUGE deal for many schools and that means pupils are put under a great deal of pressure to perform (whether the schools do this deliberately or not). My dd's school talks about "a low-key approach to SATs at KS2" but the pupils have already started a weekly practice test - on desks on their own etc. This is supposed to be to help them not be too worried by the real thing; but it is also so that the school have a well-drilled little set of robots by May.

Very wrong. And let's not even mention the marking of them...

Anyone done the the channel 4 quiz?

I got three wrong and start my PGCE in Septemeber

What I want to know is, if the SATS are about the school, not the pupil, why are they named and why do children get their individual results back? Surely we could reduce a lot of the pressure by making them anonymous?

Yeah! Got all correct, but I did take math up to multivariable calculus.

It's straight from the Daily Mail school of scaremongering news. I'm a Primary teacher, as is my husband and many of my friends. Not one of us is sub-standard at Numeracy. We all confidently passed the (easy!) TDA skills tests to teach which are of the same level as asked on the programme. Out of interest my husband and I tried the online version of the test, scoring full marks in a fraction of the time given. The friend in reception got the lowest score out of those I know who tried it, 13/15. Here's the link if you would like to see it: www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/maths-quiz
What said it all for me is that this questions are NOT of a year six standard, they range from yr 5 to GCSE level learning objectives. That's how little research the documentry makers put in.

My husband and I are both qualified to Masters level (Law and Automation respectively) and have straight As at GCSE/ A-Level. We speak 7 languages between us and have both been classed as outstanding in more than one inspection. This is NOT uncommon! Teaching is difficult to get a job in these days, in some areas in 100 applicants or more per post. They can pick and choose. Yes, soemwhere in the country you may find a failing school with failing teachers in a deprived area to collect some extreme data. I could find you another school where all the teacher score 100%. Neither result would mean the country as a whole is failing or supporting pupils across the board. Yes, some of you had bad experiences at school, I had excellent experiences of primary maths, as will others. Further, it HAS improved since the days when teachers could teach without a degree level qualification, just a teaching certificate.

This programme serves the purpose of fueling the 'teachers have any easy ride' agenda. People are leaving the profession in droves because of the attitude towards teachers, leaving the dross behind in many areas. After maternity leave I will leave too, before I see my pay cut, my pension taken away and the job further deprofessionalised. Who wants to do a job where weekly the media screams out how 'easy' you have it and how you are sub-standard yet you work every hour under the sun to get blamed for all society's faults.

Soon there will be no good teachers left, and they'll be a reason why. Demanding higher qualifications, stricter tests and demanding more whilst paying less, erroding holidays and respect and swiping pensions-can't see that one working in the lng run.

P.S. If you found a grammar/ spelling mistake well done-have a sticker

by 'consolidating areas of weakness' do we mean going at the pace of the slowest child? it was that approach that made secondary maths a total flop for me, and an inadequate preparation for A level.

there is no faking knowledge - for a child to do well in a test they have to know the stuff. the notion that 'cramming fo the test' does not actually result in kids that know the stuff on that test is misguided.

I have to say there is a lot of improvement in the teaching of Maths in primary schools since the introduction of the numeracy strategy. As a secondary76 maths teacher i could see it.
Primary teachers teach maths and english and science and history and geography and pe and ict etc. I couldn't do this. They are bound to have few weak areas as they are doing something very difficult. There isn't anyone who wouldn't. I am amazed they do so well!
Thanks strawberry for the link I have just done it and it is certainly not Y6 level. You are correct in that. There is a lot of stuff in there that I would be amazed at Y7 doing well.
There are issues with a lack of good maths teachers meaning some people do not get as good a maths education as they should and yes this happens at good schools too. This is compounding the problem of finding the next generation of people to teach maths and so on.