Abortion - The Choice . Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm

[Milliways]

Tuesday 13th May, BBC 2, 9pm: Abortion - The Choice.
"Five women face up to their decision to have an abortion, describing their thought processes as they made one of the most difficult choices anybody can make, and on which there can be no hard and fast agreement. Beyond the chatter, 200,000 pregnancies are terminated in the UK each year and none is anything less than tortuous and painful - as demonstrated by this poignant film."

Sorry, Nazi was next. didn't read post properly.

Fair enough Ronshar. Sorry about jumping down your throat.

If we agree that women are human beings with human rights, then we have to accept that those rights include the right to do things we disapprove of. It is a very dangerous slippery slope to suggest that the behaviour of pregnant women should be subject to state control and legal sanctions and a way that the behaviour of other human beings is not.

There was an interesting TV doc a while back about the Tony bland case which argued it was helpful to think in terms of 'personality' which gave rise to rights to be kept alive. Therefore it wasn't 'wrong' to abort a foetus or to 'allow' people like Tony bland (in persistant vegetative state after hillsborough) to die.

and btw Tony Bland had to starve to death (all nutrients were withdrawn) because giving him an overdose of morphine to allow him quick and painless death would have been 'wrong' and 'murder' apparently.

Fear of stepping on a slipperly slope can lead to awful cruelty.

Er, I didn't just chuck the term eugenics around randomly, I used it to describe what you would like to do to that little boy. And like it or not, eugenics will always be closely linked with the Nazis.

I'm not stopping you discussing "difficult questions of life/death/quality of life" why would I? I am also not calling you a Nazi. Just don't be suprised that when you talk about putting a little boy out of his so called "misery" someone points out that this pov has been around for years, it has a name and it is not the norm or even legal because it is wrong.

Ok, I withdraw 'chuck', it was more considered than that.

But this is something I have thought about/discussed/read about for over twenty years now. You are perfectly entitled to think I am very wrong but you are unlikely to endear your arguments to me by bringing in Nazi policies of eugenics which I certainly don't endorse.

The issue is I don't agree with you that to end this particular child's life would be wrong. He had from what I could see no quality of life and no one to love him. Of course I might have been wrong about that, but if I wasn't, I hold to my position.

I think it is wrong to fight to keep people alive regardless of circumstances because that can cause enormous emotional/physical pain at great financial cost. I don't think any of those things are not worthy of consideration.

This is not accepted by everyone and i can quite understand why. But I still think we should consider everything on a case by case basis.

If you say that somebody is alive hence that is that, and that somebody must be kept alive at all costs then this is exactly the problem with abortion because a lot of people believe that 'life' begins at conception hence all abortion is 'murder'.

The tony bland case is a good example Spero

About 25 years ago I worked on a ward caring for disabled children. One child suffered from extreme hyperactivity and had a terrible quality of life - his parents could not cope with him, lived on ward etc. But advances in medicine suddenly made the condition more managable and he benefited from these advances. In the late 80's a consultant gave a woman with severe rheumatoid arthritis a lethal injection, as her pain was extreme and he offered her no hope - but within two years the first anti TNF drugs were being trialed.
I dont believe that we should even CONSIDER some of the solutions being mooted here - put money into research,care packages and more research. Cost is not an issue in this country - the total cost of the NHS in 2005/06 was £76.3 billion ( can't find any later figures) - think Northern Rock -
and the politicos can also find the odd 2 or 3 bill when a byebye election is in the offing.

I think the problem is that I used the example of a child, which i know is very emotive, particularly when there are many here who care for disabled children.

I am NOT advocating the murder of disabled chldren. just pointing out that some children endure awful existences in institutional care and we need to think about why this happens and what can be done about it. No one was applying to adopt/foster this child - it couldn't be done, he needed professional care, immense amounts of medication etc, etc.

He was kept alive. For what? For whom? so we wouldn't have to deal with issues that make us feel sick??? Not nearly a good enough reaons I think.

I have decided not to contribute to this thread anymore.

It is because there are lots of MNers who have children with various SN.
I have looked through lots of different threads and it has become obvious that the issues being discussed here are causing some real and severe distress.

I uphold our right to discuss issues pertinant to current events of which abortion is, due to the human fertilisation and embryology bill being debated in parliament, however I also think that we should be sensitive to the feelings of others who may be deeply upset by what is said.

but you're not outside their house with a megaphone shouting 'listen to my offensive views NOW' are you? you are posting on a message board which people can read/not read/ shake their heads at in disgust, turn off the computer and move on.

The risk is that any view that anyone has will offend somebody. If you find it offensive, either don't engage or use the opportunity to attempt to broaden the mind of the offensor.

I like to think my opinions aren't set in stone, that's why i find things like this so valuable. How else can you get to know the views of so many people in so short a time??

I agree Ronshar - I didn't want to upset or offend anyone which is why I was cautious of getting involved in the first place.

As far as human rights go, I do not think any person's human rights and choices should be exercised entirely at the expense of another.

I completely agree, but a comment I made which was actually an example (a bad one) of something said to me, has caused complete uproar and I have found three different threads started about it all. Thats not including the abuse thrown at me on this thread.

I feel that my comments were taken out of context and I apologised as soon as I realised the offence I had caused.

I have never been rude to anyone on MN. I would like to think I have helped women through MC's early and late and also those who have had to make the heartbreaking decision to carry on with their pregnancies or not.
I have seen others put through this witch hunt and always felt sorry for them. Now I know how it feels!

Sorry ronshar, I see what you mean now.

I'm just a bit worried that it sets a dangerous precedent to say that 'I won't voice my opinion because it is likely to offend/upset someone'.

I'm not saying go out and wind up people who are understandably very emotional and upset about certain things... but my dad for eg gets quite 'offended' if I challenge some of his racist remarks. I'm not going to stop doing it just because he thinks he's right.

There is tact though, Spero. I strongly believe that abortion is wrong, and involves killing what is, to me, a baby. However, if I state this opinion in such plain terms, I know I will offend and upset those who have chosen to have terminations. I understand your point about your dad, but I think this is a wholly different and much more emotionally charged situation.

TTT, I think i understand your point about tact, i certainly wouldn't burst into a SN thread and start mouthing off.

But i think i am entitled to have an opinion and to express it in a way which I hope has not been offensive.

If you find it 'offensive' because you disagree with it, that is a different thing.

I've just read with interest a thread on the SN topic list which wants this thread deleted and me chucked off mumsnet. Apparently because I am disabled 'I should know better'.

Now that i find offensive.

If you don't like my views, discuss them with me. I am always willing to listen and learn more. But as a disabled person or indeed as any person i have a right to comment on issues, even if they are emotive and even if they do upset people.

Spero I really found some of the things posted about me were really quite unnecessarily hostile and nasty and to be honest made me cry.
I didnt go shouting back, I apologised and so far only two of the people who made those comments have accepted my heartfelt apology.

Does that make me start a thread about it all, no I am an adult and accept people as they are without trying to judge them!

I think women should have a choice. I would have an abortion if I found out my child was going to be born with severe disabilities. My idea of severe may be different to other people's but it's entirely their choice if they want to continue with a pregnancy as it is my choice not to.

I think people who get offended by other people's choice over something like a severe disability, just because they happen to have a child or a sibling with the same or similar disability, need to step back and realise that other people will carry on making decisions about these things and that they are not basing their decision on or around other people's experience. They can only make their choices based upon what they feel is best for them.

I agree Spero, you have a right to express your opinion and I don't think you've done it in an offensive way. I'm not offended at what you have said, I disagree with it and find some of it quite shocking. I'm just always cautious about diving into debate on emotionally charged issues, as from my experiences on another parenting forum I usually get jumped on for my stance.

However, I don't see what you being disabled has to do with anything - you are entitled to your opinion and you shouldn't have to feel a certain way.

Ronsar, I've read a bit more now and I think you've had a really rough ride. I think you have handled it all extremely gracefully.

I'm really quite sad that there is a whole other thread demanding my immediate ejection from the mumsnet community. none of the posters on that thread have come here to say it to me and i wouldn't have known if i hadn't gone hunting after what you said.

Now why is that??

Because they just want me gone without me being allowed to defend myself or apologise?

I think that is sad.

TTT, thanks, i don't want to be offensive, I'm not trying to troll. But after a lifetime of hearing how valuable disabled people are versus the reality of how most of us are treated by society (I am apparently in the 10% of disabled people who have a job!!) i am interested in exploring these issues.

i agree with you that maybe more caution is called for. So i have learned something!

Didn't mean to make you cry Ronshar. My cousin's baby was born at 27 weeks and your post hit a very raw nerve.

spero I left this thread because i was have been filled with disgust by your posts. as I see you still seem to be making your voice heard.
you are thankfully in a minority. hopefully it will stay that way and people like you will never be able to make your alful ideas real. yes I for one would love to see you leave MN.
I joined MN to get support and help others. not to see threads judging and condemming disabled children.
I have a disabled child. she has no "voice" so when I see threads Like this I will sure as hell fight her corner.

2shoes, I think if you read what I wrote again you will agree that at NO time do I 'judge and condemn' disabled children.

I was a disabled child. I know what it is like to be bullied.

I was debating the point about 'what is life' 'when do we strive to keep alive' etc in the context of abortion.

My point is, i think, that if you simply state that life is life and that is that, then you have to conclude that abortion is murder. Obviously i don't agree with that but I'm interested in discussing it.

At no time have I denigrated those who care for disabled children - my mother was one of those people in both her professional and personal life. I admire her more than I can say. I could not have done what she has done.

I did not set out to hurt you or what you have done for your child. I am sure she is blessed to have you as her mother. outcomes for disabled children seem to depend almost entirely on how hard their parents fight. And that is sad. Because as I pointed out some children don't have anyone in their corner.

I'm not leaving mumsnet. I'm very sorry to have upset you or anyone else but the way to deal with it is to direct your issues at me, not start up a separate thread trying to remove me.

that is bullying and that is censorship and THAT is wrong.

Spero after reading your views I am not at all suprised that you do not know when to shut up. You are intitled to have your opinion of course but maybe a parenting forum is not the right place for it.

Bearing in mind that this is MN are you suprised that people are upset by your comments?