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Wolf Hall - The Mirror and the Light

723 replies

virgocatlover · 31/10/2024 11:08

Series 2 is confirmed to start Sunday 10th November.

Almost 10 years after the first series, I'm excited to see the third and final novel brought to life.

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21
Drom · 25/11/2024 10:18

BeatrizBoniface · 25/11/2024 08:45

Yes, Lady Rochford is a great character. She was there through all the upheaval, until Katherine Howard. I wish she'd written her memoirs!

I only realised last night that the actress, Lydia Leonard, played Anne Boleyn in the RSC Bring Up the Bodies (and Cherie Blair in The Crown) — she’s very good.

@Sausagenbacon, I agree it’s uninvolving, and I revere Hilary Mantel, and adored the trilogy of novels. It’s been intelligently adapted, the cast are almost without exception excellent (I liked what Timothy Spall did with Norfolk), but it’s got the same problem as the RSC adaptations. Without the richness and subtlety of Mantel’s writing of Cromwell’s POV, all we have is a thoroughly familiar story and a lot of shots of men in hats walking into and out of rooms.

I don’t remember the last series being this uninvolving. Is it the editing that’s changed, or the lack of the ‘Anne Boleyn replaces Katharine and then falls in her turn’ governing narrative thread? I just thought last night that if I saw Cromwell take off his hat on entering a room one more time, I would scream! And I get that it’s historically accurate, the hat stuff. It’s just not very interesting to look at. Ditto all those long shots of Cromwell, seen from behind, walking across a large room.

It’s hard to do justice to Mantel’s characterisation, I think. It’s simply not clear whether her Cromwell, if he didn't actually ‘betray’ Wolsey, simply kept away when it was clear Henry had banished him, so as not to wreck his own prospects, just as it’s not entirely clear how much of his zeal in dissolving the monasteries was down to his pro-Reformation religious beliefs and how much his desire to line his own and Henry’s coffers.

Historically, I think George Cavendish writes about Cromwell crying after Wolsey’s downfall and ascribing it to fear that he would now lose everything. Mantel writes the scene, very interesting,y, as Cromwell grieving for his dead wife and daughters and lying about the real reason he’s in tears. This seems to have been transmuted in the adaptation to Cromwell crying after Dorothea told him Wolsey died believing Cromwell had betrayed him. It’s a lot less subtle.

IcedPurple · 25/11/2024 10:26

Drom · 25/11/2024 10:18

I only realised last night that the actress, Lydia Leonard, played Anne Boleyn in the RSC Bring Up the Bodies (and Cherie Blair in The Crown) — she’s very good.

@Sausagenbacon, I agree it’s uninvolving, and I revere Hilary Mantel, and adored the trilogy of novels. It’s been intelligently adapted, the cast are almost without exception excellent (I liked what Timothy Spall did with Norfolk), but it’s got the same problem as the RSC adaptations. Without the richness and subtlety of Mantel’s writing of Cromwell’s POV, all we have is a thoroughly familiar story and a lot of shots of men in hats walking into and out of rooms.

I don’t remember the last series being this uninvolving. Is it the editing that’s changed, or the lack of the ‘Anne Boleyn replaces Katharine and then falls in her turn’ governing narrative thread? I just thought last night that if I saw Cromwell take off his hat on entering a room one more time, I would scream! And I get that it’s historically accurate, the hat stuff. It’s just not very interesting to look at. Ditto all those long shots of Cromwell, seen from behind, walking across a large room.

It’s hard to do justice to Mantel’s characterisation, I think. It’s simply not clear whether her Cromwell, if he didn't actually ‘betray’ Wolsey, simply kept away when it was clear Henry had banished him, so as not to wreck his own prospects, just as it’s not entirely clear how much of his zeal in dissolving the monasteries was down to his pro-Reformation religious beliefs and how much his desire to line his own and Henry’s coffers.

Historically, I think George Cavendish writes about Cromwell crying after Wolsey’s downfall and ascribing it to fear that he would now lose everything. Mantel writes the scene, very interesting,y, as Cromwell grieving for his dead wife and daughters and lying about the real reason he’s in tears. This seems to have been transmuted in the adaptation to Cromwell crying after Dorothea told him Wolsey died believing Cromwell had betrayed him. It’s a lot less subtle.

I don’t remember the last series being this uninvolving. Is it the editing that’s changed, or the lack of the ‘Anne Boleyn replaces Katharine and then falls in her turn’ governing narrative thread? I just thought last night that if I saw Cromwell take off his hat on entering a room one more time, I would scream! And I get that it’s historically accurate, the hat stuff. It’s just not very interesting to look at. Ditto all those long shots of Cromwell, seen from behind, walking across a large room.

I am loathe to admit it, but I agree that this series is not as good as the first one and dare I say it, can be a bit boring at times. The scenes you describe are repetitive and not visually interesting. Too many scruffy men talking darkly in oak panelled rooms. Which of course is how it was, but it's not very compelling television.

The story of Ann Boleyn's rise and downfall has been told many times, but there's a reason for that. It's one of the most fascinating stories in British history. Without that, and other interesting female characters, this series is falling a bit flat by comparison with the first. The first series was one of the finest things I've ever seen on TV, so this is still very good. Just not as outstanding as it was.

I also don't like all the flashbacks and 'visions'. It just doesn't seem in keeping with the tone of the show. And Rylance just isn't Cromwell. The 10 years since series one haven't helped either.

IcedPurple · 25/11/2024 10:34

Sausagenbacon · 25/11/2024 09:37

I'm afraid I'm finding it fairly dreary. Which is how I found the book.
To keep up some kind of dramatic tension, each episode is centred on something that didn't happen.
Also, as someone said upthread, there was no chance that Cromwell would have met Mary Tudor alone, especially in her nightdress.
And the colour-blind casting is annoying.

It's not without it's pleasures, but not as enjoyable as I thought it would be.

Also, as someone said upthread, there was no chance that Cromwell would have met Mary Tudor alone, especially in her nightdress.

I agree.

I know that bedrooms in the Tudor era weren't quite considered the inner sanctum of privacy in the way they are now. But still, no way would a man have entered the bedchamber of a woman without having one of her ladies present. And Mary wasn't just any woman, but the King's daughter! Add to that the intrigue that Cromwell was hoping to marry Mary, and it makes the whole thing just silly. You might forgive some dramatic licence if it added a lot to the story, but I don't think this did.

Damian Lewis is the best thing about this series. He captures Henry's combination of pettiness, viciousness and weakness perfectly.

BigDahliaFan · 25/11/2024 10:48

I'm still loving it and even more after watching the whole of the previous one in the week before.

minipie · 25/11/2024 10:57

For me, it’s those little moments from Mantel’s imagination that really elevate it from just watching/reading a history.

I don’t mind bits from imagination at all and agree they elevate it… but it’s irritating when it’s something that simply wouldn’t have happened, like the unchaperoned meeting in a dressing gown as mentioned above.

IcedPurple · 25/11/2024 11:14

BeatrizBoniface · 25/11/2024 09:45

Wouldn't she just! In another era she could have had a more powerful political role.

Watching the series and reading these posts has reignited my interest in Lady Rochford. Just found and listened to this podcast, which gives a really interesting assessment of her involvement in the downfall of two queens.

podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-rise-and-fall-of-jane-boleyn/id1564113869?i=1000670425398

BeatrizBoniface · 25/11/2024 11:16

Thanks, @IcedPurple 👍

minipie · 25/11/2024 11:21

I’m influenced by the portrayal of Lady Rochford in Jean Plaidy’s Murder Most Royal (read as a teen) where she is so desperately jealous of Anne, Anne’s social success and the closeness between her and George that she accuses the siblings of incest.

duc748 · 25/11/2024 11:50

I only realised last night that the actress, Lydia Leonard, played Anne Boleyn in the RSC Bring Up the Bodies (and Cherie Blair in The Crown) — she’s very good.

And Mariana in Gentleman Jack!

Sausagenbacon · 25/11/2024 11:55

I just thought last night that if I saw Cromwell take off his hat on entering a room one more time, I would scream!
Me too!

Londonmummy66 · 25/11/2024 12:02

IcedPurple · 25/11/2024 09:38

I think there has been a biography of sorts written about Lady Rochford, but as so often with non royal women of that era, very little is really known about her and much of the book is padding and educated guesswork. Until her marrriage to George Boleyn and involvement in the downfall of Katherine Howard, she was just another well born court lady.

But yes, Lady Rochford would be a great 'fantasy dinner party' guest. The stories she could tell! Nothing got past that woman.

There is - its by Julia Fox and is well written - I can recommend it - secondhand copies are very cheap - about 70p plus postage on world of books so an easy add to your Christmas list!

drivinmecrazy · 25/11/2024 12:35

I'm absolutely not a history nut, I can barely recall all of Henry's wives names.
But I wholeheartedly agree with a poster upthread who said that it's so nice to watch a series that doesn't demean the intelligence of the viewers.

I say this as someone who watches and enjoys the TV adaptation after reading the books many years ago.

I watch with my phone in hand, consulting google every so often to work out the intricacies of the court and succession of the time.

It's highly enjoyable with a little bit of cerebral activity.

Just wish there were more series like this.

I absolutely love watching trash TV as much as the next person.
But there's not enough programming like this

CaveMum · 25/11/2024 12:49

@drivinmecrazy have you watched The West Wing? Obviously not a historical drama but another fantastic show that doesn’t talk down to its viewers - you are expected to “know” what they are talking about, there’s very little explaining about the different government acronyms, what parts of the constitution mean, etc. I learnt so much about US politics from it!

StandingSideBySide · 25/11/2024 13:06

minipie · 25/11/2024 11:21

I’m influenced by the portrayal of Lady Rochford in Jean Plaidy’s Murder Most Royal (read as a teen) where she is so desperately jealous of Anne, Anne’s social success and the closeness between her and George that she accuses the siblings of incest.

I must have a read of that although there is no evidence Lady Rochford made that accusation. It came out as a piece of slander after her death.

KiIIingMeDeftly · 25/11/2024 13:27

Interesting to hear that Lydia Leonard was Anne in the RSC version. I think she is probably far closer to what the real Anne looked like than Claire Foy was.

Sausagenbacon · 25/11/2024 13:39

The book I mentioned is The Last Tudor.
I normally don't like P Gregory, but I enjoyed her portrait of Lady Rochford in this

BeatrizBoniface · 25/11/2024 17:24

KiIIingMeDeftly · 25/11/2024 13:27

Interesting to hear that Lydia Leonard was Anne in the RSC version. I think she is probably far closer to what the real Anne looked like than Claire Foy was.

Yes, good point!

BeatrizBoniface · 25/11/2024 17:25

Sausagenbacon · 25/11/2024 13:39

The book I mentioned is The Last Tudor.
I normally don't like P Gregory, but I enjoyed her portrait of Lady Rochford in this

Thanks for the recommendation.

Clawdy · 25/11/2024 17:34

Intrigued by Lady Rochford. Rochford was my gran's maiden name, and she was from a desperately poor Irish family!

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 25/11/2024 17:43

virgocatlover · 24/11/2024 12:45

I've watched episode 3. Following on from the Jane discussions last week, I think it would have been very unlikely that Mary would meet Cromwell in her nightgown, especially unchaperoned!

Yes, the intrusion of Thomas Seymour into the Princess Elizabeth’s bed chamber ‘she in her shift’ was one of the main accusations in his trial ( he was beheaded).

LetThereBeLove · 25/11/2024 17:46

minipie · 25/11/2024 11:21

I’m influenced by the portrayal of Lady Rochford in Jean Plaidy’s Murder Most Royal (read as a teen) where she is so desperately jealous of Anne, Anne’s social success and the closeness between her and George that she accuses the siblings of incest.

I remember reading that as a teenager too! The Jean Plaidy books encouraged my life long love of history.

As far as this 2nd TV series is concerned, I couldn't finish the book so I'm not entirely surprised that I'm not loving the dramatisation either.

MidnightPomegranite · 25/11/2024 17:53

Sorry to gatecrash your thread. I’m enjoying the series but not as much as Wolf Hall. Really hampered by terrible history knowledge- can anyone recommend a good but accessible book of the history around the time of Henry V111 . Not P Gregory and nothing too dense. Or any eg podcasts . Thanks and sorry hope it’s not a derail

IcedPurple · 25/11/2024 17:57

MidnightPomegranite · 25/11/2024 17:53

Sorry to gatecrash your thread. I’m enjoying the series but not as much as Wolf Hall. Really hampered by terrible history knowledge- can anyone recommend a good but accessible book of the history around the time of Henry V111 . Not P Gregory and nothing too dense. Or any eg podcasts . Thanks and sorry hope it’s not a derail

The 'Not Just The Tudors' podcast linked above is very good. You can find it on all the main platforms and there are episodes about every aspect of Tudor life, and more. Take your pick!

David Starkey is a bit of a tosser but his books on the period are good for an accessible introduction to the era. Lady Antonia Fraser's books are excellent too.

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